Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[Keith Millea]

AROUND and AROUND.......:wheel:

[Greg Burnham]

"Albert Doyle" pretends to not have the time to present actual evidence in support of "his" claims, yet has the time to write a rather lengthy reply below! "He" then has the belligerence to accuse Phil Dragoo of being "wholly dishonest" even though Phil has a track record of being one the most honest brokers on the DPF! In a fraction of the time that it took to write the reply below an honest broker would have been able to post an excerpt or even simply identify the page number(s) in the book that support his assertions.

This is a blown Cointelpro-like Operation. I shall refer to the joint Doyle/Stapleton Operation henceforth as: CARTMAN

That's good poetry Phil but it's nowhere close to the facts. If we cracked open Piper (which I'm not going to do because I don't have the time) you would see Piper present a very well-detailed body of evidence to back his assertions (add faulty sponsorship claim disclaimer here). It is much more complex and valid than your obviously politically-motivated dismissal. So much so that I would say you were the one committing the errors of bias much more than Piper. As long as people are willing to deal with this at the level of pissing contest it only shows what they are trying to avoid, in my opinion. There's a much better conversation about Piper that is deliberately being avoided here. I find that wholly dishonest.

For people who argue honestly in the real world David entered false information he got backwards and ended up abandoning his arguments. The rest of his material is basically identical to what Lone Nutters do to the conspiracy evidence. There's a basic smell test here that hasn't been passed. That is, would Mosley or Echevarria be likely to have made-up this claim out of nowhere or somehow gotten it wrong? These protests appear as evasive and assuming the long-odds. That's sort of what McAdams and Lone Nutters do. All you have to do to judge these protests is see how they never discuss the Swiss banks or the Lansky/zionist connections to them. People honestly looking in to this would see that network is real and confirmed and has some undeniable conclusions associated with it. It's those conclusions that give Piper credibility and also deny credibility to those who ignore them so freely and for such obvious purposes themselves.

I find it very unlikely and very unbelievable that either Mosley or Echevarria somehow reported their experiences inaccurately. Since some are trying too hard to make that the case I think that says enough. There's a dedicated incuriosity that is more than plain and I'm not sure that Piper is the one guilty of the extreme bias here. In my opinion the flak being thrown up here hasn't overcome the objective verifiability of much of the information Piper presents. The best the opposition can do is heckle and question otherwise obvious things. The suggestion that somehow Echevarria got the "new jew backers" wrong is something that doesn't survive the common sense smell test. I'd like to see the explanation of the people who doubt that for why Echevarria would say such a thing or Mosley would report it inaccurately? This is obvious excuse-making. Any honest deep political investigator would see Piper makes a much greater case using all the evidence that the protestors universally ignore in these threads and therefore dismiss their own credibility.

[Danny Jarman]

AROUND and AROUND.......:wheel:

Precisely my thoughts Keith.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[David Josephs]

The entirety of the 771-page anti-Jewish screed rests on an anonymous informant's unverifiable claim of a third-hand comment.

That's a big statement.

Prove it.

I have, repeatedly....

771 pages and you can't find even a sentence to support the conclusion?

Here, let me give you a hand....

Chapter 15 is supposed to bring it all together....:

Would you please go to YOUR COPY OF PIPER - REREAD CHAPTER 15 - and POINT TO THE PAGES that support the following "preface" to the Chapter...

Chapter Fifteen
The Twain Shall Meet
The Permindex Mystery:
Israel, the CIA, the Lansky Crime Syndicate
and the Plot to Kill John F. Kennedy

Central to understandingthe joint Mossad-CIA-Lansky
Organized CrimeSyndicate nexus in the plot to assassinate
John F. Kennedy is to recognize the importance of a little explored
corporate entity based in Rome and known as
Permindex.

New Orleansbusinessman Clay Shaw, indict ed
by Jim Garrison forconspiracy in the JFK assassination,
served on thePermindex board of directors.

Many assassinationresearchers have contended that
Permindex was a covertCIA money laundering operation.
Shaw, of course, didhave ties with the CIA. Others have put
forth the theory thatPermindex was a front for a Nazi
remnant left over fromWorld War II (DJ: GLADIO). This theory, exciting
though it may be, falls far off the mark.

All of the firm evidence indicates Permindex was an
Israeli operationwith close CIA connectionsand tied
inextricably with the Meyer Lansky Organized Crime
Syndicate.

Unraveling the mystery of Permindex explainsthe web of
intrigue that ties all of the key players inthe conspiracy
together. The Permindex connect ion is also the famous
"Frenchconnection" to the JFK assassination. Andas we
shall see, the French connection is, actually, the Israeli
connection.

And here we finally have the REALITYof the matter…. Piper needs to connectPaulino Sierra
to Lansky, the CIA, and PERMINDEX and in turn connet THEM to the assassination.

Does this look like SPIT and BUBBLEGUM is holding these JFK links together to anyone else?

Once again MARK or ALBERT - you are free to post ANYTHING from that book in your support....
DJ


Was a Short-Lived Cuban Exile Group a Mossad Front?
The Strange Story of Paulino Sierra and Peter Dale Scott

In fact, it was Sierra who financed the armsdealreferenced on the first page of
the preface of FinalJudgmentabout which a federal informant inside the Cuban
groups (one ThomasMosley) said he was told: "We now have plenty of moneyour
new backers are theJewsas soon as they take care of JFK."

Since Sierra wasfunded by "Las Vegas and Cleveland gambling interests," that
unquestionably points towardMeyer Lansky's chief Las Vegas point man, Morris
Dalitz (formerly Cleveland-based), who was a shareholder in Mossadoperative
Tibor Rosenbaum's Permindex entity which, as we have seen, played such a central
role in the JFKconspiracy.

In other words, ifas we contend here[size=12]Sierra'sshort-lived organization was a[/SIZE]
[size=12]Mossad"front" designed to finance and manipulate the New Orleans-based[/SIZE]
operations used toorchestrate the JFK assassination through the activities of
Frank Sturgis, GuyBanister and David Ferrie, not to mention Permindex board
member Clay Shaw(DJ: THEN) themoney was provided by the Lansky syndicate's gambling
ventures, which, asnoted, were intertwined with the Mossad's Permindex operation.

Sounds strangely familiar… now who do we know from the casethat creates a HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION from which to conclude TRUTH? i.e. is an exit hole and exit?

Piper writes, "IF youassume items as fact even though we have provided nothing to prove or supportsuch a fact but IF YOU ASSUME it to be FACT is it FACT?" oy!

Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr.Perry, which I shall ask you to assumeas being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.
Assume first of all thatthe President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gunhaving a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with theweapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bulletstriking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, strikingthe President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper borderof the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President'sbody striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the largemuscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fasciachannel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the rightpleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lunginflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have justdescribed, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, andthen exitingfrom the hole that you havedescribed in the midline of the neck.
Now, assuming those facts to be true,would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistentwith anexit woundunderthose circumstances?

[Lauren Johnson]

The entirety of the 771-page anti-Jewish screed rests on an anonymous informant's unverifiable claim of a third-hand comment.

That's a big statement.

Prove it.

I have, repeatedly....

771 pages and you can't find even a sentence to support the conclusion?

Here, let me give you a hand....

Chapter 15 is supposed to bring it all together....:

Would you please go to YOUR COPY OF PIPER - REREAD CHAPTER 15 - and POINT TO THE PAGES that support the following "preface" to the Chapter...

Chapter Fifteen
The Twain Shall Meet
The Permindex Mystery:
Israel, the CIA, the Lansky Crime Syndicate
and the Plot to Kill John F. Kennedy

Central to understandingthe joint Mossad-CIA-Lansky
Organized CrimeSyndicate nexus in the plot to assassinate
John F. Kennedy is to recognize the importance of a little explored
corporate entity based in Rome and known as
Permindex.

New Orleansbusinessman Clay Shaw, indict ed
by Jim Garrison forconspiracy in the JFK assassination,
served on thePermindex board of directors.

Many assassinationresearchers have contended that
Permindex was a covertCIA money laundering operation.
Shaw, of course, didhave ties with the CIA. Others have put
forth the theory thatPermindex was a front for a Nazi
remnant left over fromWorld War II (DJ: GLADIO). This theory, exciting
though it may be, falls far off the mark.

All of the firm evidence indicates Permindex was an
Israeli operationwith close CIA connectionsand tied
inextricably with the Meyer Lansky Organized Crime
Syndicate.

Unraveling the mystery of Permindex explainsthe web of
intrigue that ties all of the key players inthe conspiracy
together. The Permindex connect ion is also the famous
"Frenchconnection" to the JFK assassination. Andas we
shall see, the French connection is, actually, the Israeli
connection.

And here we finally have the REALITYof the matter…. Piper needs to connectPaulino Sierra
to Lansky, the CIA, and PERMINDEX and in turn connet THEM to the assassination.

Does this look like SPIT and BUBBLEGUM is holding these JFK links together to anyone else?

Once again MARK or ALBERT - you are free to post ANYTHING from that book in your support....
DJ


Was a Short-Lived Cuban Exile Group a Mossad Front?
The Strange Story of Paulino Sierra and Peter Dale Scott

In fact, it was Sierra who financed the armsdealreferenced on the first page of
the preface of FinalJudgmentabout which a federal informant inside the Cuban
groups (one ThomasMosley) said he was told: "We now have plenty of moneyour
new backers are theJewsas soon as they take care of JFK."

Since Sierra wasfunded by "Las Vegas and Cleveland gambling interests," that
unquestionably points towardMeyer Lansky's chief Las Vegas point man, Morris
Dalitz (formerly Cleveland-based), who was a shareholder in Mossadoperative
Tibor Rosenbaum's Permindex entity which, as we have seen, played such a central
role in the JFKconspiracy.

In other words, ifas we contend here[size=12]Sierra'sshort-lived organization was a[/SIZE]
[size=12]Mossad"front" designed to finance and manipulate the New Orleans-based[/SIZE]
operations used toorchestrate the JFK assassination through the activities of
Frank Sturgis, GuyBanister and David Ferrie, not to mention Permindex board
member Clay Shaw(DJ: THEN) themoney was provided by the Lansky syndicate's gambling
ventures, which, asnoted, were intertwined with the Mossad's Permindex operation.

Sounds strangely familiar… now who do we know from the casethat creates a HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION from which to conclude TRUTH? i.e. is an exit hole and exit?

Piper writes, "IF youassume items as fact even though we have provided nothing to prove or supportsuch a fact but IF YOU ASSUME it to be FACT is it FACT?" oy!

Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr.Perry, which I shall ask you to assumeas being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.
Assume first of all thatthe President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gunhaving a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with theweapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bulletstriking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, strikingthe President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper borderof the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President'sbody striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the largemuscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fasciachannel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the rightpleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lunginflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have justdescribed, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, andthen exitingfrom the hole that you havedescribed in the midline of the neck.
Now, assuming those facts to be true,would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistentwith anexit woundunderthose circumstances?

Please allow me to answer for Mark since he has gone ... wherever. "Will someone, anyone please tell me what Gladio has to do with the assassination of JFK. I have been waiting and I get no answer except for rude comments which are totally irrelevant."

[David Josephs]

Better yet...

Sierra? Albert and I(MS) never mention SIERRA even once in this thread.... you mean PAULINO SIERRA (such a nice jewish boy's name) was the MONEY for Homer and Mannie's anti-Castro group to help them invade Cuba and depose Castro??

And who is this Mosley character? Piper only mentions him ONCE in the entire book - he CAN'T be important to this accusation... can he?

:banghead:

Piper:What Scott strenuously wishes to avoid is the likelihoodthat either the Mossad
was Sierra's actual handler or that the Mossad co-optedlower-level operatives in a
covert Kennedy-sponsored assassination plot against Castroand utilized them for
the Mossad's own purpose, namely, the assassination of JohnF. Kennedy


[size=12]


[/SIZE]
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....entry37850
John Simkin, on Aug 23 2005, 06:57 AM, said:

What do members make of Robert D. Morrow? I have just read his book, First Hand Knowledge. He explained in a speech at the State University of New York (28th June, 1991) what the motive for killing JFK:

The assassination of President Kennedy was, to put it simply, an anti-Castro 'provocation', an act designed to be blamed on Castro to justify a punitive American invasion of the island. Such action would most clearly benefit the Mafia chieftains who had lost their gambling holdings in Havana because of Castro, and CIA agents who had lost their credibility with the Cuban exile freedom fighters from the ill-fated Bay of Pigs invasion.

I also believe that this was the primary motive behind the assassination.

Here's my old outdated "theory" on the motive -


Disclaimer: This is just a half-formed kinda fuzzy "maybe" based upon what I read. I reserve the right to change my mind when I get more "data."

The only way to get Cuba back from Castro was to do two things: remove him by any means, and somehow invade and get a "government in exile" to get a toehold in Cuba and hold it for at least 24 hours. Doesn't have to be a big force just well armed. But who should be the "government in exile?" Trying to understand Cuban exile politics can get very confusing. Who's Left who's Right who was a Castro supporter…If Cuba was freed, who would make up the government? Who would the exile community get behind? Artime? Carlos Prio? Mateo? Kohly? Forget anybody closely tied to Batista. How about Manolo Ray? Too far left. The US government may have gotten behind Artime. Hence the Second Naval Guerrilla. The problem with Artime is that if he became the new Presidente of Cuba, certain people's interests would not be represented. This includes organized crime and big business. They needed to put their own person in there that they could control. The problem is most of the well known leaders were too independent and had too much political baggage. So, the person selected had to be bright, Cuban, no excess political baggage but controllable. E[B]nter Paulino Sierra Martinez. [/B]To bring him on board, Burt Mold and John Lechner were sent to Chicago to make their pitch.

Sierra accepted the conditions and the JGCE was formed. The money had to be tightly controlled by a subsidiary Union Tank Car. The money controlled by someone high up the company chain William Browder. Who were Mold and Lechner representing? (Lechner's name and affiliation were found in Nagell's notebook) The FBI and CIA were certainly curious. One theory was that he was being backed by "gamblers from out West." (Jake Lansky) Another CIA/FBI theory was "oil men." Most of these theories came from Sierra himself. A clue may be William Trull. Trull was Sierra's temporary babysitter who disappeared after introducing Sierra around the Miami exile community. (Felipe Vidal among others) Trull was from Dallas, Texas and mentioned the King Ranch. Also, while Burt Mold may have had organized crime connections - he later worked in a Vegas Casino - I don't see John Lechner in that role. Lechner was an old time anti-communist. He was Executive Director of the Americanism Educational League, which was an arm of the California American Legion. He was also very active in the American Committee to Free Cuba. He and Mold formed their own organization called Americans for Cuban Freedom. The American Committee to Free Cuba is a very interesting org that has a very interesting membership. The ACFC had many right wing extremists California Rangers, Christian Defense League, etc. Some names of note: Robert A. Surrey, Gen. Walker's right hand man, Kent Courtney, Hon. John Rousselot, Steve Foote, Harry Von Zell, and Jose Norman. Norman gave Loran Hall the money to get Hemming's rifle out of hock. The check was from the ACFC. Hall knew many of these people and would give inspirational fund raising talks before many of these people. The HSCA was very interested in this group. (I'm getting too long winded here.) It was John Rousselot that gave Gerry Hemming, and because he tagged along, Loran Hall a lot of good contacts and sources of funds in Dallas. (Harry Dean mentions John Rousselot as one of the planners/money men behind the actual assassination plot.)
Hall dogged Hemming and eventually started meeting with most of Hemming's contacts behind his back. Hall made his pitch for what eventually evolved into the Bayo-Pawley raid. He claimed that it was his and John Martino's idea. Hall, Martino and Rip Robertson met in Robertson's room and formulated a plan. This was an assassination attempt on the Castro brothers (scheduled for July 26) disguised as a planned raid to capture Russians that would come back and tell the world that the missiles were still in Cuba. Some of the funds came from Hall's friend Santo Trafficante. The mission left without Hall. Eddie "Bayo" Perez was allegedly captured in Cuba but as late as Sept 1963, Perez's brother-in-law Luis Angel Castillo AKA ANTONIO ELORIAGA-REYES was trying to get into Cuba to get him out.. So Part One was a no go.

Later, Hall went back to visit Robert Morris, Dan Smoot, Lester Logue, H.L. Hunt, Nelson Hunt, Gen Walker and later hooked up with Wiley Yates, Wally Welsh and Nico Crespi. It was in Lester Logue's office that Hall met most of the moneymen. Hall mentioned that a "Jack" who owned a trucking firm (possibly J.E. Rose from Rose Truck Line) offered him $50,000 to shoot Castro's boss, the guy in Washington. Hall "declined" at the time. Hall continued his fund raising by flashing his letter from Manolo Ray around and writing letters back to Ray but never mailing them.

Back to Sierra. Sierra was throwing money around and starting to make some headway in meeting with all the various anti-Castro factions and came to the notice of people in Washington. (Possibly through his fellow Chicagoan, Morris Leibman?) Sierra and Reinaldo Pico (Later involved in Watergate) visit Artime's Latin American camps. Pico reporting to Bernard Barker at his time in August 1963. Aug 17, 1963 he goes to Washington to visit a member of the State Dept. John Crimmins(?). Not sure of the content of the meeting though. By September 1963 things start to fall apart for Sierra. People are complaining that he is spending too much money on himself. He is called back to Chicago and warned by William Browder. He is still left in charge of the Junta but his "coalition" failed to materialize. Part Two failed. All these weapons and people are in Guatemala and Nicaragua just waiting to invade. Hmm…. maybe if a communist killed JFK, the invasion would still go on. Around this same time, Homer Echevarria was heard to say that they'd get plenty of money after they took care of JFK. This was the Chicago plot. This was foiled so then it was on to Dallas.


Dave (Boylan)

[Mark Stapleton]

Duck! Quick look over there Mark!

Nice try.

Still waiting.....

There's heaps of evidence implicating Israel already on this thread. I do plan to add more. When I'm ready.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my request made at #635 and #640, you hypocrite.

[Magda Hassan]

Duck! Quick look over there Mark!

Nice try.

Still waiting.....

There's heaps of evidence implicating Israel already on this thread. I do plan to add more. When I'm ready.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my request made at #635 and #640, you hypocrite.

Well, when you've made your case (and Piper's) for Israel being the prime mover in the JFK assassination we can move on to Gladio. Until then, as you well know, it is a DISTRACTION :flypig: In the mean time since you are just so eager to learn more there is nothing to stop you educating yourself by reading some of the many threads we have here on Gladio as posted previously by Jan.

And you were saying about the Jews and Israel and JFK, what?

[Mark Stapleton]

Duck! Quick look over there Mark!

Nice try.

Still waiting.....

What are you talking about?

I repeat "nice try". You know what she is talking about: EVIDENCE that the Joos killed JFK. You pretend not to understand because you lack evidence.

Just what do you do when you are not busy hating an entire race? I have never seen anyone push this bs this far. It's obsession of the worst kind.

Thanks Phil D. for that great response.

Dawn

You just don't have a clue. Not a clue. Clueless.

[Magda Hassan]

Please allow me to answer for Mark since he has gone ... wherever. "Will someone, anyone please tell me what Gladio has to do with the assassination of JFK. I have been waiting and I get no answer except for rude comments which are totally irrelevant."

Lauren, you have clairvoyant powers!