23-04-2023, 07:20 PM
(This post was last modified: 24-04-2023, 03:49 PM by Brian Doyle.)
Richard -
I think you yourself would readily admit that anything that originated from Sean Murphy should be sent back to the mill for reprocessing...
The problem with your timing for Couch/Darnell being only 22 seconds after the shots, according to Murphy and Jeff Daniels, is the fact that Calvery & Reed are already climbing the steps in Couch/Darnell...That's a problem because before that Calvery & Reed had already stopped to talk to Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the steps...
Murphy is a squirrely character and being from the Greg Parker school of research he cherry-picks and selects some evidence and ignores other...Murphy's pseudo-analysis on Lancer is designed to gain credibility by means of cross-reference between Couch and Wiegman...It gives Murphy's research the superficial appearance of rigor and, with the right sales pitch, people will never notice, like with my height analysis, that Murphy never bothered to synchronize Calvery & Reed's run from their position in the motorcade spectators with his alleged timing for Couch...Murphy is AWOL and is officially notorious...
Since Lovelady & Shelley are well on their way up the Elm St extension by the time of Couch/Darnell that means that they are many seconds past their being informed by Calvery that the president has been shot...If indeed Lovelady & Shelley are 4 seconds past leaving Calvery at the base of the steps in Couch/Darnell then you have to subtract that from Jeff Daniel's 22 seconds - making 18 seconds...If we then apply that 18 seconds to Calvery & Reed's sprint (with Karen Hicks following-up) from their position in the spectators we can extrapolate it with Adams & Styles' run...If Calvery & Reed bolted 1 or 2 seconds after seeing Kennedy's brains blown out at close distance, and Adams & Styles left 5 seconds after the head shot, we can directly compare the distance and speed between those two adrenaline-fueled sprints...Page 402 of your book shows a good comparison of the distances covered by both sets of women...Adams & Styles covered a little more than 2/3rd's the distance and had the aid of gravity going downstairs...If indeed Calvery & Reed got to the steps in 17 seconds then 2/3rd's + of that is about 13 seconds...It is my opinion that you are underestimating how far Adams & Styles got in those 13 seconds...I think we are fairly safe assuming Adams & Styles bolted at plus 5 when Clint Hill jumped on the trunk and Mrs Garner looked over and saw the girls were already gone when the limousine went under the triple underpass...
The position of the Press Cars in Couch/Darnell should be analyzed to see if Jeff Daniels and Murphy have merit with their 22 second time...I have commonly seen Couch/Darnell referenced as being "25 to 30" seconds after the shots...The Couch/Darnell clip itself is 4 seconds in length...Murphy gives zero attention to the fact that the shorter he makes Couch/Darnell the quicker Calvery & Reed, and therefore Adams & Styles, become by inference...Calvery & Reed then become the standard measure for adrenaline-fueled fleeing women...
I'm sorry Richard but I went to the beginning of the Couch Film, as you referenced per Murphy/Daniels, and I would like to be shown where Charles Hester can be seen ducking down...Anything sourced from Sean Murphy is now officially dubious and I cannot for the life of me see anything that shows a synchronizing of Hester between Wiegman and Couch...If you'll allow me I am going to stick with 25 to 30 seconds being the timing for Couch/Darnell...Murphy avoids synchronizing Baker himself who was well up Houston Street still at the 313 shot...He had to drive his motorcycle to the concrete island, get off it, set the kick stand, get his keys etc...So, yeah, I guess 22 seconds is possible but I would have to see it proven better than Murphy's word that he sees Hester in Couch seeing how I can't see a bloody thing...And I would also have to see it honestly considered in relation to Adams & Styles's times...There's a reason why the Commission did not do a time trial for the girls...Obviously the glaring hole in all this is Oswald's time down from the 6th Floor...The girls and Mrs Garner can only be dangerous to the official story if the girls follow my scenario and get to the steps quickly and therefore AHEAD of Oswald since Oswald did not have enough time to get there before the girls if they bolted at plus 5...I have yet to see anything from either Murphy, yourself, or Ernest that recognizes it wasn't the girls who would have seen Oswald but Mrs Garner...
I don't have time to go get all of Styles' quotes from Ernest's website, but suffice to say I think she was gotten to, like many others, and helped scuttle her own witnessing...I believe Adams and Garner and think the girls bolted from the windows at plus 5 seconds...It makes the most sense according to the other evidence...I also think Styles is lying for the government when she says they went to the Passenger Elevator first...If they had then it is unlikely Garner would be so far behind...Garner said she followed the girls and never said anything about following them to the Passenger Elevator...It makes sense that if Garner said she heard the girls on the NW steps that they went right to them...It also makes sense that if the girls went to the Passenger Elevator that they probably would have used the SE stairs...Geneva Hine never saw the girls in that area even though they would have to be there around the same time...If you compare Calvery & Reed's run with Adams & Styles', the window to 4th Floor landing part is only a segment of the former's distance...If Calvery & Reed covered their distance in 17 seconds then Adams & Styles covered the window to 4th Floor landing in 11 seconds...That means Adams & Styles would be at the 4th Floor landing at around plus 16...That puts them at the 1st Floor at plus 40 and squeaks them out the rear Loading Dock door just ahead of Truly & Baker...But they may have shaved seconds off that 40 second estimate in a time trial...Your own admission that the girls bolted from the window at plus 5 puts them at the 2nd Floor landing at 32 seconds after the shots and 42 seconds before Baker's fastest time...You see now why I insist the girls got out before Truly & Baker...Otherwise your scenario requires the girls to take 74 seconds to reach the 2nd Floor landing when all measurements get them there 40 seconds earlier...
Even if Couch/Darnell is plus 22 Baker is still several seconds from reaching the stairs...He then runs right in to the crowded steps full of employees jamming to get back inside...Once inside he's disoriented and asking people where the stairs are...Truly is standing still in Couch/Darnell...He's got to run after Baker and also push through the employees on the stairs...He still has to catch up to Baker in the Lobby and guide him inside...
All said, I wasn't aware that Baker said he was in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room with Oswald for 30 seconds...That would make your 2nd Floor Lunch Room ships in the night theory possible, as would a plus 22 second time for Couch/Darnell - though I still prefer the out before Truly & Baker scenario...From studying the references you cited in your book I have learned that the West Elevator had some dubious business going on but I have to say that its being covered-up does not necessarily mean it was covered-up because it contained Dougherty and the Hit Team...There are many cases in the record where the conspirators covered-up everything involved with a person (for example the Lobby Stop), so the West Elevator being covered-up could have been done because of Dougherty's witnessing of Oswald in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room and not because he was the elevator man for the Hit Crew...
I'm still stunned that 13 years ago the JFK internet was a place for discussion and hammering out of ideas...It seems in the post-Fetzer/Cinque internet world evidence discussion has been discouraged and replaced with sulking resentment, grudges, and ignoring at the expense of good research...Greg Parker and Sean Murphy are probably very satisfied at the achievement they have made for COINTELPRO-like damaging of the research world...Their bogus Prayer Man theory, and the damage it has done to the previous level of evidence discussion, has succeeded in nearly totally shutting down any productive discussion of the final evidence and solving of the conspiracy...It has made the JFK internet a counter-productive morass of crony-ism, favoritism, self-entitled egos, self-promoting syndication, featuring of low skill researchers by podcast, fantasy theorizing, hostile websites, and, more importantly - zero discussion of the best evidence...
We're not far off here Richard and, if you read this thread, your theories do not necessarily conflict with mine...Even if your West Elevator theory is true it could still allow Lee in a White T-Shirt to stumble down the SE stairs in to the Lobby with Harvey at the other end of the Lobby waiting for Shelley to give him permission to leave...Harvey goes down to the Lobby from there and gets stopped by a cop and then gets bailed-out by Shelley (which you now seem to admit)...The bailed-out by Shelley part is very important because it explains a whole sector of cover-up designed to conceal the conspiracy...I respect Armstrong but he's got to come around on this...The Passenger Elevator could have been turned off by a main power switch in the 5th Floor mechanical room...
I think you yourself would readily admit that anything that originated from Sean Murphy should be sent back to the mill for reprocessing...
The problem with your timing for Couch/Darnell being only 22 seconds after the shots, according to Murphy and Jeff Daniels, is the fact that Calvery & Reed are already climbing the steps in Couch/Darnell...That's a problem because before that Calvery & Reed had already stopped to talk to Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the steps...
Murphy is a squirrely character and being from the Greg Parker school of research he cherry-picks and selects some evidence and ignores other...Murphy's pseudo-analysis on Lancer is designed to gain credibility by means of cross-reference between Couch and Wiegman...It gives Murphy's research the superficial appearance of rigor and, with the right sales pitch, people will never notice, like with my height analysis, that Murphy never bothered to synchronize Calvery & Reed's run from their position in the motorcade spectators with his alleged timing for Couch...Murphy is AWOL and is officially notorious...
Since Lovelady & Shelley are well on their way up the Elm St extension by the time of Couch/Darnell that means that they are many seconds past their being informed by Calvery that the president has been shot...If indeed Lovelady & Shelley are 4 seconds past leaving Calvery at the base of the steps in Couch/Darnell then you have to subtract that from Jeff Daniel's 22 seconds - making 18 seconds...If we then apply that 18 seconds to Calvery & Reed's sprint (with Karen Hicks following-up) from their position in the spectators we can extrapolate it with Adams & Styles' run...If Calvery & Reed bolted 1 or 2 seconds after seeing Kennedy's brains blown out at close distance, and Adams & Styles left 5 seconds after the head shot, we can directly compare the distance and speed between those two adrenaline-fueled sprints...Page 402 of your book shows a good comparison of the distances covered by both sets of women...Adams & Styles covered a little more than 2/3rd's the distance and had the aid of gravity going downstairs...If indeed Calvery & Reed got to the steps in 17 seconds then 2/3rd's + of that is about 13 seconds...It is my opinion that you are underestimating how far Adams & Styles got in those 13 seconds...I think we are fairly safe assuming Adams & Styles bolted at plus 5 when Clint Hill jumped on the trunk and Mrs Garner looked over and saw the girls were already gone when the limousine went under the triple underpass...
The position of the Press Cars in Couch/Darnell should be analyzed to see if Jeff Daniels and Murphy have merit with their 22 second time...I have commonly seen Couch/Darnell referenced as being "25 to 30" seconds after the shots...The Couch/Darnell clip itself is 4 seconds in length...Murphy gives zero attention to the fact that the shorter he makes Couch/Darnell the quicker Calvery & Reed, and therefore Adams & Styles, become by inference...Calvery & Reed then become the standard measure for adrenaline-fueled fleeing women...
I'm sorry Richard but I went to the beginning of the Couch Film, as you referenced per Murphy/Daniels, and I would like to be shown where Charles Hester can be seen ducking down...Anything sourced from Sean Murphy is now officially dubious and I cannot for the life of me see anything that shows a synchronizing of Hester between Wiegman and Couch...If you'll allow me I am going to stick with 25 to 30 seconds being the timing for Couch/Darnell...Murphy avoids synchronizing Baker himself who was well up Houston Street still at the 313 shot...He had to drive his motorcycle to the concrete island, get off it, set the kick stand, get his keys etc...So, yeah, I guess 22 seconds is possible but I would have to see it proven better than Murphy's word that he sees Hester in Couch seeing how I can't see a bloody thing...And I would also have to see it honestly considered in relation to Adams & Styles's times...There's a reason why the Commission did not do a time trial for the girls...Obviously the glaring hole in all this is Oswald's time down from the 6th Floor...The girls and Mrs Garner can only be dangerous to the official story if the girls follow my scenario and get to the steps quickly and therefore AHEAD of Oswald since Oswald did not have enough time to get there before the girls if they bolted at plus 5...I have yet to see anything from either Murphy, yourself, or Ernest that recognizes it wasn't the girls who would have seen Oswald but Mrs Garner...
I don't have time to go get all of Styles' quotes from Ernest's website, but suffice to say I think she was gotten to, like many others, and helped scuttle her own witnessing...I believe Adams and Garner and think the girls bolted from the windows at plus 5 seconds...It makes the most sense according to the other evidence...I also think Styles is lying for the government when she says they went to the Passenger Elevator first...If they had then it is unlikely Garner would be so far behind...Garner said she followed the girls and never said anything about following them to the Passenger Elevator...It makes sense that if Garner said she heard the girls on the NW steps that they went right to them...It also makes sense that if the girls went to the Passenger Elevator that they probably would have used the SE stairs...Geneva Hine never saw the girls in that area even though they would have to be there around the same time...If you compare Calvery & Reed's run with Adams & Styles', the window to 4th Floor landing part is only a segment of the former's distance...If Calvery & Reed covered their distance in 17 seconds then Adams & Styles covered the window to 4th Floor landing in 11 seconds...That means Adams & Styles would be at the 4th Floor landing at around plus 16...That puts them at the 1st Floor at plus 40 and squeaks them out the rear Loading Dock door just ahead of Truly & Baker...But they may have shaved seconds off that 40 second estimate in a time trial...Your own admission that the girls bolted from the window at plus 5 puts them at the 2nd Floor landing at 32 seconds after the shots and 42 seconds before Baker's fastest time...You see now why I insist the girls got out before Truly & Baker...Otherwise your scenario requires the girls to take 74 seconds to reach the 2nd Floor landing when all measurements get them there 40 seconds earlier...
Even if Couch/Darnell is plus 22 Baker is still several seconds from reaching the stairs...He then runs right in to the crowded steps full of employees jamming to get back inside...Once inside he's disoriented and asking people where the stairs are...Truly is standing still in Couch/Darnell...He's got to run after Baker and also push through the employees on the stairs...He still has to catch up to Baker in the Lobby and guide him inside...
All said, I wasn't aware that Baker said he was in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room with Oswald for 30 seconds...That would make your 2nd Floor Lunch Room ships in the night theory possible, as would a plus 22 second time for Couch/Darnell - though I still prefer the out before Truly & Baker scenario...From studying the references you cited in your book I have learned that the West Elevator had some dubious business going on but I have to say that its being covered-up does not necessarily mean it was covered-up because it contained Dougherty and the Hit Team...There are many cases in the record where the conspirators covered-up everything involved with a person (for example the Lobby Stop), so the West Elevator being covered-up could have been done because of Dougherty's witnessing of Oswald in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room and not because he was the elevator man for the Hit Crew...
I'm still stunned that 13 years ago the JFK internet was a place for discussion and hammering out of ideas...It seems in the post-Fetzer/Cinque internet world evidence discussion has been discouraged and replaced with sulking resentment, grudges, and ignoring at the expense of good research...Greg Parker and Sean Murphy are probably very satisfied at the achievement they have made for COINTELPRO-like damaging of the research world...Their bogus Prayer Man theory, and the damage it has done to the previous level of evidence discussion, has succeeded in nearly totally shutting down any productive discussion of the final evidence and solving of the conspiracy...It has made the JFK internet a counter-productive morass of crony-ism, favoritism, self-entitled egos, self-promoting syndication, featuring of low skill researchers by podcast, fantasy theorizing, hostile websites, and, more importantly - zero discussion of the best evidence...
We're not far off here Richard and, if you read this thread, your theories do not necessarily conflict with mine...Even if your West Elevator theory is true it could still allow Lee in a White T-Shirt to stumble down the SE stairs in to the Lobby with Harvey at the other end of the Lobby waiting for Shelley to give him permission to leave...Harvey goes down to the Lobby from there and gets stopped by a cop and then gets bailed-out by Shelley (which you now seem to admit)...The bailed-out by Shelley part is very important because it explains a whole sector of cover-up designed to conceal the conspiracy...I respect Armstrong but he's got to come around on this...The Passenger Elevator could have been turned off by a main power switch in the 5th Floor mechanical room...