John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee

[Steve Minnerly]

David wrote -

Steve...

It is VERY important to remember that Angleton was running all sorts of operations as was the rest of the CIA.
______________________________________________________

Yes i think thats a more accurate way of putting it than what i implied in my first post. Maybe Im just naive but when i first heard about Mr. Armstrongs book and how far back evidence of the doppleganger plan began i was pretty amazed.

But i suppose technically it could have started the year that Truman initiated the CIA which was 1947 according to wiki (although I'm not claiming it did )

[Jan Klimkowski]

I posted this in an earlier Harvey and Lee thread here at DPF:

"HARVEY" spent a lot of time with Timmer during the next two months of the summer of 1953. They went swimming at the reservoir and rode their bicycles at the city park. Timmer was impressed by this kid "from the big city" who talked of gang fights in New York City and of making weapons with razor blades stuck in potatoes. "Harvey" said he had been all over the country. "Harvey" carried a pamphlet in his back pocket and on one occasion showed it to Timmer and remarked, "I'll bet you've never seen anything like this". It was a pamphlet on Marxism. Where would he get such a pamphlet? From his father and his uncle, who were, according to the woman who spoke with Mrs. Tippit, "Hungarians and spent all of their time on Communist activities". These people may have acted like Communists, but in reality they were probably agents provocateur and their mission was to uncover and identify domestic Communists.

This is probably not relevant but there are several MKULTRA subprojects dealing specifically with "Hungarians".

As far as one can tell, these are to do with studies of refugees from the 1956 Hungarian Uprising - who were of course victims of a giant Radio Free Europe psyop which misfired horribly....

Anyway, probably random if the official story that these MKULTRA subprojects were based around events in 1956 is correct, but for the record:

Subproject 65: MKULTRA: Hungarian Refugees

Subproject 82: MKULTRA: Hungarian Refugees

Subproject 89: MKULTRA: Hungarian Repatriation

Box # 7

Ethics: Federal Penitentiary -- Atlanta: Fisher Scientific Company: Flickering Lights: FOIA Important Documents (FOIA correspondence and Court DocumeRnts for suit against the CIA):Freedom of Info Act requests (1): Freedom of Info Act requests (2): Foreign Countries: Heath: Foreign Liaison: Friends of McGill University, Inc.: Ft. Detrick: Joan Gavin: Genetics: George Washington University: Geschichter Fund: Unlabeled File --MKULTRA Subprojects: Government Agencies: Graduate students: Grifford: Handwriting Hardenberg: Hearings: Hinkle: History: Hospitals: Hungarian Projects: (Defectors, Refugees): Edward Hunter: Hypnosis 50-53: Hypnosis, Cold War period: Hypnosis - Literature: Hypnosis Hypnosis - C I:: Hypnosis Documents (1): Subproject ARTICHOKE: Hypnosis Documents (2): Subproject ARTICHOKE: Hypospray: Inspector General: University of Illinois: Internal Revenue Service: Iowa State Hospital, Ionia State Hospital, Michigan: Ittleson Foundation: IVY Research Lab: Johns Hopkins University: Juicy Quotes: Lyman Kirkpatrick: John Lilly: Lovell Chemical Company: Lovell: Lowinger: LSD - Counterculture: LSD - (Old Sandoz File): LSD (1): LSD (2)

http://www.ra-info.org/library/programmi...ltra.shtml

Our knowledge of MK-ULTRA and related projects is still highly restricted.

We do know that MK-ULTRA involved the deliberate creation of dissociative states through narco-hypno-trauma model, and the exploitation of such mental states for intelligence and nefarious purposes.

We also know that the subjects of MK-ULTRA experimentation were those without voices: orphans, petty criminals, the poor, military families.

Dr Louis Jolyon West was the Top Secret Contractor for MK-ULTRA Sub-project 43: "Studies of dissociated states" (1956).

The first page is stamped: "WARNING NOTICE: SENSITIVE INTELLIGENCE SOURCES AND METHODS INVOLVED". The first page includes the following words written by West:

"The literature concerning clinical entities ordinarily considered to constitute the dissociative reactions is fairly well limited to case-studies of patients with fugues, amnesia, somnambulisms, and multiple personalities.

"Unpublished studies by the writer have led him to a greatly expanded concept of dissociation. Dissociative phenomena are found in everyday life. Such manifestations include "highway hypnosis", states of "fascination" in flyers, hypnagogic and phantasy hallucinations, transient anaesthesias, and many other examples. These reactions have many features in common with a variety of clinical disorders including "sleep paralysis", trance states, Gilles de la Tourette's disease, latah, "Arctic hysteria", and a number of other disturbances in addition to the well-known dissociative reactions of the text-books.

"There is considerable experimental evidence pointing to the significant role played by dissociative mechanisms in the production of the various phenomena of hypnosis. In fact, hypnosis may be considered a pure-culture, laboratory controlled dissociative reaction. Of the entire phenomenology of the various states described above, there is not one single manifestation which cannot be produced experimentally in the hypnotic subject. Thus, through the use of hypnosis as a laboratory device, the dissociative mechanisms can be studied with a high degree of objectivity."

(quoted on p107, Ross, "The CIA Doctors")

One can guess at what MK-ULTRA doctor, West, is referring to by his "unpublished studies". It is also revealing that West states emphatically, in 1956, that "of the entire phenomenology of the various states described above, there is not one single manifestation which cannot be produced experimentally in the hypnotic subject".

Fwiw.

[Jan Klimkowski]

David,As you show in the above, isn't it strange that Os was being treated for Gonococchus contracted while "in the line of duty". What kind of line of duty would an ordinary marine be doing to contract gonorrhea?

I believe Dick Russell discusses this, based on Nagell's experiences in Japan during the time. Oswald may have already been involved in espionage and frequenting the Queen Bee in Tokyo, which was notorious for the circle of prostitutes doubling as spies which frequented it. I think I'm recalling this correctly, though don't quote me. But I'm sure something to this effect is dealt with in The Man Who Knew Too Much.

Albert - you may find the thread linked below of interest:
[URL="https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?10781-Harvey-and-Lee-vs.-Richard-Case-Nagell&highlight=bluebird"]
Harvey and Lee vs. Richard Case Nagell[/URL]

In fact it's so interesting that I'm going to bump it.

[David Josephs]

David,As you show in the above, isn't it strange that Os was being treated for Gonococchus contracted while "in the line of duty". What kind of line of duty would an ordinary marine be doing to contract gonorrhea?

That makes for a very interesting episode and dovetails into Dick Russell's great book on Nagell.
(Nagell actually married a beautiful Asian girl he met while in Japan)

Oswald (LEE) was apparently given funds and was seen frequenting a "club" that served as a prostitution spying ring to try and extract secrets from the GIs stationed at the super secret CIA-U2 base in Atsugi.

from H&L:

Lee Oswald was diagnosed as having
"urethritis, acute, due gonococcus #0303."** Captain Deranian wrote that the origin of
the disease was, "In line of duty, not due to own misconduct."61 58-19

**NOTE: On March 31, 1964 Staff Medical Officer Captain George Donabedian told
Warren Commission staff attorney John Hart Ely the Marine Corps Medical records
clearly showed that Oswald had contacted gonorrhea (probably from his Japanese girlfriend).


p169 H&LStout's group spent most of their liberty in the towns of Yamato andSagami,
which were near the base. Sagami was farther away, near the main camp,while Yamato
was near the east camp and a 20-minute bus ride. While on liberty, theyoften encountered
fellow Marines at the local bars. At the "Queen Bee," inYamato, Stout recalled
that Oswald alway s seemed to be with the same Japanese girl, as wasthe custom of
many of the Marines. Liberty ended at midnight, which limited theirfree time and
activities to nearby towns


http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2010/...ornia.html
(From "The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: How the CIA Set Up
Oswald" by Mark Lane, Hustler, October 1978)

Recently, a former Marine
who had served with Oswald in Santa Ana, California, after Oswald had returned
from Atsugi, began to talk about his discussions with him. His name is David
Bucknell.

Bucknell told me that one day he and Oswald went to a tavern
near the base to drink a few beers. Two women approached them. Later that day
Oswald told Bucknell the incident with the women reminded him of a experience he
had had at Atsugi. Oswald had been alone in a bar when an attractive Japanese
woman approached him, he told Bucknell. She asked him some questions about his
work on the base. That work was, of course, with the supersecret U-2 program.
Oswald,predictably, reported that conversation to his superior officer, who then
arranged for a meeting on the base between Oswald and a man dressed in civilian
clothes.

The man, a "security" or "security-intelligence" operator,
explained to Oswald that he could do his country a great service. Oswald was
told that the woman was a KGB contact and that he would be given false
information to pass on to her. Oswald agreed, and while still a teenager in the
Marine Corps he became an intelligence operative. His liaison with the woman
continued; he was given money to spend at the Queen Bee, and apparently
encouraged by American intelligence to enter into a sexual relationship with the
woman.

Regarding Oswald's tour of duty in Japan, Bucknell can only report
what Oswald recounted to him. However, he was involved directly with Oswald in
an intelligence effort when they both were at MACS-9. In1959 Oswald, Bucknell
and others were ordered to report to the Criminal Investigation (CID) at the
base. There a civilian began an effort aimed at recruiting those present for an
intelligence operation against "Communists" in Cuba. Oswald was selected to make
several additional trips to CID. Later he told Bucknell that the civilian who
served as his contact or control at Atsugi had taken over the same job at Santa
Ana. Still later, Oswald confided to Bucknell that he, Oswald was to be
discharged from the Marine Corps very soon and that he would surface in the
Soviet Union. Oswald told Bucknell that he was being sent there on assignment by
American intelligence and that he would return to the United States in 1961 as a
hero

[Jan Klimkowski]

The spooks love their lil' jokes. It makes them feel omnisicent and omnipotent.

Oswald often supped at the Bluebird cafe......

[Albert Rossi]

Jan & David,

Yes, this is the material I was remembering (though I falsely remembered Tokyo). I'm at work (shouldn't be reading this!), no resources available, just memory.

Thanks for bumping the thread, I'll have a look later.

[David Josephs]

David wrote -

Steve...

It is VERY important to remember that Angleton was running all sorts of operations as was the rest of the CIA.
______________________________________________________

Yes i think thats a more accurate way of putting it than what i implied in my first post. Maybe Im just naive but when i first heard about Mr. Armstrongs book and how far back evidence of the doppleganger plan began i was pretty amazed.

But i suppose technically it could have started the year that Truman initiated the CIA which was 1947 according to wiki (although I'm not claiming it did )

According to a 2005 study on the History of US Intelligence Reform.. the "Central" part of CIA was a product of the Joint Chiefs... Eberstadt's Report was pushing for the opposite it seems.

The CIA was initially staffed with OSS, Military and a whole slew of Germans/Russians.... the concept of DCI was also JCS. and most recently (after 9/11) DCI became the Director of National Intelligence relating to both foreign AND domestic spying.

WWII exposed the USA and allies to techniques and areas of study not given the time of day to that point.

This also does not mean that these activities only began after 1947... there simply was no formal means to oversee, direct and reap the benefits from such activity.


Deviously intelligent men given the resources and edict to STOP THE SPREAD OF COMMUNISM with a minimum of oversight and accountability...

What could go wrong with that? :-)

:unclesam:

[Dawn Meredith]

Harvey and Lee now available from:

Available for purchase from:
Quasar, Ltd.
848 N. Rainbow #85
Las Vegas, NV 89107
(702) 613-8263
1030 pgs with CD containing 736 documents and photos
$65 plus $15 shipping (check/money order or PayPal)
(7.5 lbs/bubble wrap/double wall box/insurance included)

Dawn

New web site is also up. Marty Bragg just posted it on fb and I shared then copied this from the site as I know people have been trying to get the book at a decent price and Andy is "all out".

[Jim Hargrove]

Harvey and Lee now available from:

Available for purchase from:
Quasar, Ltd.
848 N. Rainbow #85
Las Vegas, NV 89107
(702) 613-8263
1030 pgs with CD containing 736 documents and photos
$65 plus $15 shipping (check/money order or PayPal)
(7.5 lbs/bubble wrap/double wall box/insurance included)

Dawn

New web site is also up. Marty Bragg just posted it on fb and I shared then copied this from the site as I know people have been trying to get the book at a decent price and Andy is "all out".

John is trying to set up a PayPal account right now, but nothing is in place yet. (I spoke to him a half hour ago about this.) My website is not set up for e-commerce, so I'm not sure how this will work. Best thing for now is probably to send a check or money order to the Las Vegas address.

JIm

[Jim Hargrove]

The actor Martin Sheen (probably best known for "Apocalypse Now") called me today. I had written a little book about him some years ago, and I sent him a snailmail note about the Harvey and Lee website asking him to take a look.

I was floored by what he said. After a little small talk, he said, something like, "Well, it's pretty clear it was a set-up by the CIA. There was an Oswald double, you know, who set up the other Oswald for the assassination and then went to the balcony of the Texas Theater. People saw him being led out the back door and believed they had seen the arrest of the guy who got killed by Ruby...."

I said, "You've read John Armstrong's book?" and he answered, "No all this is from a book published a couple of years ago called JFK and the Unspeakable by Jim Douglass." I never heard of it before, but It is probably based on some of JA's work. He said Oliver Stone mentioned the Douglass book in a recent interview and said the two Oswald interpretation was the only thing that made sense.

Anyway, Martin told me that he doesn't have a computer but that his wife does, and he'll borrow hers and take a look at the website. He asked me to stay in touch.

Pretty cool!

Jim