John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee

[Albert Rossi]

I have read Harvey & Lee, and think John's book is a must-read, mainly because of all the new information he has turned up and assembled. It is quite an impressive bit of legwork and digging. I have never had trouble with the idea of Oswald doubles -- Leon in New Orleans, the doubles which seem to have been operating in Dallas several weeks before, etc. But I'm not sure what to make of the principal thesis of the book. Certainly there are lots of difficulties with the identity of Oswald: school records, social security records, being in different places at the same time, non-matching anatomical features or medical history, etc. But one thing has bothered me about the "matching" of two youngsters at such an early age. Can anyone cite statistical information on what it would take to find two kids with extremely close physiognomies who were unrelated? and, once located at that early age, have a high level of certainty that they will remain phenotypically not just similar, but very similar, through their adolescent maturation process?

Let me explain a little further. In the case of the doubles in New Orleans, Mexico City, Dallas, the closeness of the physical match does not seem to be a crucial issue. But the kinds of distinctions in the photographic record John adduces are very subtle, something only a family member like John Pic could really notice. I don't question the ability to find suitable doubles for a 24-year old; my question has to do with doubling from early on.

[Albert Doyle]

Can anyone cite statistical information on what it would take to find two kids with extremely close physiognomies who were unrelated? and, once located at that early age, have a high level of certainty that they will remain phenotypically not just similar, but very similar, through their adolescent maturation process?

Boys From Brazil eugenics was going on in the 20's and 30's. It is very possible they solved this problem from the start by creating identical twins artificially. Very possible.

[Albert Doyle]

In short, it is my considered contention that MK-ULTRA did NOT produce Manchurian Assassins, and that the actual assassination of a Very Important Person would never have been entrusted to a Manchurian Candidate.

Instead, it is my contention that MK-ULTRA produced Manchurian Patsies. Hypno-narco-trauma conditioning enabled programmers to put a subject into a dissociative state and to task the subject to go to location X and behave in manner Y. Sirhan Sirhan is a perfect example of the form: Manchurian Patsy.

What about Mark David Chapman? He was a hypno assassin. What about Sirhan, he went in there and pulled the trigger?


Honestly Jan, you should stop to think before you post. If Oswald was in the lunchroom then he perfectly conforms to Sirhan. Your point is trivial, and, more importantly, fails to show where what I wrote is nonsense. In fact it reinforces the point that Oswald was most-likely hypnotized to pull his gun in the theater to get him killed. I fail to see anything in your post that disproves that.


Chip on the shoulder?

[Charles Drago]

I have read Harvey & Lee, and think John's book is a must-read, mainly because of all the new information he has turned up and assembled. It is quite an impressive bit of legwork and digging. I have never had trouble with the idea of Oswald doubles -- Leon in New Orleans, the doubles which seem to have been operating in Dallas several weeks before, etc. But I'm not sure what to make of the principal thesis of the book. Certainly there are lots of difficulties with the identity of Oswald: school records, social security records, being in different places at the same time, non-matching anatomical features or medical history, etc. But one thing has bothered me about the "matching" of two youngsters at such an early age. Can anyone cite statistical information on what it would take to find two kids with extremely close physiognomies who were unrelated? and, once located at that early age, have a high level of certainty that they will remain phenotypically not just similar, but very similar, through their adolescent maturation process?

Let me explain a little further. In the case of the doubles in New Orleans, Mexico City, Dallas, the closeness of the physical match does not seem to be a crucial issue. But the kinds of distinctions in the photographic record John adduces are very subtle, something only a family member like John Pic could really notice. I don't question the ability to find suitable doubles for a 24-year old; my question has to do with doubling from early on.

These are interesting questions -- many of which have been posed by myself and others, few of which have been answered.

Let's keep in mind that this and previous hypothetical from-birth doppelganger gambits would have been instituted and become operational long before the era when cameras became ubiquitous in popular culture. Take, for example, the aliases allegedly chosen by James Earl Ray -- living individuals whose written physical descriptions closely matched his own. None of them looked like Ray, however. But on the printed page, they worked just fine.

Of course in the case of LHO doppelgangers we're dealing with visual IDs. But consider the extant photo(s) of ostensible Oswald doubles John Thomas Masen, William Seymour, Billy Lovelady, Steve Wilson, etc. (ALL OF WHICH I SHOULD BE ABLE TO ATTACH, BUT WHEN I TRY I'M INFORMED THAT I'M AT MY LIMIT OF ATTACHMENT SPACE; MAGDA, WOULD YOU PLEASE INVESTIGATE?); how many can survive "double" status when compared side-by-side to photos of the historic LHO?

How close a resemblance is close enough for government work?

My informed guess is that children of similar age and somatotype were selected and monitored/directed. Those who developed striking facial and physique similarities that lasted into their teens and early adult years were utilized accordingly.

[Jan Klimkowski]

In short, it is my considered contention that MK-ULTRA did NOT produce Manchurian Assassins, and that the actual assassination of a Very Important Person would never have been entrusted to a Manchurian Candidate.

Instead, it is my contention that MK-ULTRA produced Manchurian Patsies. Hypno-narco-trauma conditioning enabled programmers to put a subject into a dissociative state and to task the subject to go to location X and behave in manner Y. Sirhan Sirhan is a perfect example of the form: Manchurian Patsy.

What about Mark David Chapman? He was a hypno assassin. What about Sirhan?


Honestly Jan, you should stop to think before you post.

It's never stopped you , "Albert Doyle".

You really think the assassination of RFK was entrusted to Sirhan Sirhan the Manchurian Candidate?



However, since you've been a member of DPF for several years and you've been involved in threads where I've discussed this before, in my judgement your multiple identities are now confirmed.

Be seeing ya...

[Charles Drago]

What about Mark David Chapman? He was a hypno assassin. What about Sirhan?


Honestly Jan, you should stop to think before you post.

Had enough?

Don't say I didn't warn you ...

[Albert Doyle]

You really think the assassination of RFK was entrusted to Sirhan Sirhan the Manchurian Candidate?



However, since you've been a member of DPF for several years and you've been involved in threads where I've discussed this before, in my judgement your multiple identities are now confirmed.

Be seeing ya...

What are you talking about? That's a false claim you're accusing me of there. I don't not have multiple identities and am the only person who ever posted under my handle. You are falsely accusing me.


Secondly, I think you're confused because you are forgetting that Sirhan Sirhan WAS a Manchurian Candidate. Unless you are forcing some kind of ridiculous contrived definition. How may I ask was Sirhan NOT a Manchurian Candidate?

If Oswald was in the lunchroom then he perfectly conforms to Sirhan. Your point is trivial, and, more importantly, fails to show where what I wrote is nonsense. In fact it reinforces the point that Oswald was most-likely hypnotized to pull his gun in the theater to get him killed. I fail to see anything in your post that disproves that.

[Albert Rossi]

My informed guess is that children of similar age and somatotype were selected and monitored/directed. Those who developed striking facial and physique similarities that lasted into their teens and early adult years were utilized accordingly.

Hmm. Charles, you make a good point here. What I am saying might be something like the question which the weak anthropic principle tries to address: why is the universe the way it is? Of course, because that's the universe we're observing. What you suggest is that if the "match" hadn't panned out, they would have abandoned this particular doubling. In other words, there's a teleological fallacy inherent in my question.

Certainly there are a lot of problems raised by John which are difficult to answer except by positing two distinct individuals sharing or partially sharing an identity. I'm still not entirely sold, but I think I need to reframe my question.

All I was trying to do was inject a little common sense. But, then, what did Einstein write? "Common sense is the collection of prejudices held by age 18."

[Jan Klimkowski]

I'm not going to derail this thread.

However, for the record, Albert Doyle and I had an extensive discussion about Chapman and Manchurians around a year ago. Here is an excerpt:

You don't know how glad I am you wrote that because it is perfectly in line with what we know. My first thoughts were Bresler makes a strong case but it is still possible Chapman "programmed" himself in a way that was identically similar to covert mind control. It is possible Chapman had a borderline personality prone to schizophrenic tendencies and the extreme traumatic experience of boyhood drug use and LSD exacerbated this into a disturbed condition. Let's just say that such personalities are doing to themselves exactly what the MK-ULTRA controllers were doing to their subjects. You could make a very good argument that Mark Chapman created this huge psychological rift between high school drug use and born again christianity, which were at such opposite extremes that they created a mental schism that caused Chapman to become unstable. The reason the MK-ULTRA group used LSD was because it had such bizarre effects of the mind. A person who has his psyche influenced by this pseudo-schizophrenic aspect of LSD could enter a bizarre world where things take on the extreme illumination and magically-interpreted meanings of the schizophrenic state. In light of this it is very possible Chapman had managed to MK-ULTRA program himself and had tuned himself to irrational wavelengths of schizophrenic notions imparted to him by this LSD altered state where things take on magical or even divinely-inspired meaning.

Albert - I agree with you that LSD creates a mental state in which epiphanies are possible. Some of these epiphanies are inevitably faux, but do not appear false to the person who has experienced the "deep insight". So, yes, LSD can create a state of inspired, or religiously inspired, conviction in the rightness of one's course.

However, I'm not sure what you mean by a person "MK-ULTRA programming himself". Fundamentally, the mind control programmes such as MK-ULTRA are framed around a controller attempting to shape, frame and control the behaviour of his subject. It takes two...

I agree with you that Bresler's book, which I last read many years ago, has some interesting evidence. Chapman's presence in Hawaii is provocative. There's circumstantial evidence that there's an "MK-ULTRA" hospital wing in Hawaii, and that the Revd Jim Jones was sent there to have his programming renewed at the time his doppelganger was running round Cuba causing trouble.....

------------------------

Albert - the terminology matters.

With respect, in my judgement the phrase "MK-ULTRA programmed himself" mixes oranges and apples in a deeply unhelpful way.

If your argument is that a young person with a pre-existing borderline psychiatric condition could develop a full blown psychosis through exposure to LSD whilst surrounded by extreme religious types who considered rock and roll stars such as John Lennon more Antichrist than Guru, then I'm part of the way with you.

However, describing this as "MK-ULTRA self programming" does not aid our understanding of this process. The common cultural phrase for such a person is Acid Casualty.

With hallucinogens, set and setting is fundamentally important.

A Siberian adolescent entering the spirit world with a knowedgeable shaman from their own tribe, and a cauldron bubbling with Siberia's native hallucinogens, undertakes their journey in a constructive set and setting.

A fragile American teenager bussed to a military laboratory to be prodded by a spooky shrink who has no intuitive understanding of Acidland, but is trained to use electrodes and demand a response to Pain Trauma Death movies whilst the subject is trapped in a box, undertakes a journey in a destructive set and setting.

Most scientific discoveries can be used for Good or Evil.

The Good Rocket to travel to the Stars, the Bad Rocket for the World's Destruction.

Tragically, very early on, hallucinogens were co-opted and manufactured by the Man whose intention - not always successful - was to exploit their Evil potential.

LSD may have been one of the tools used to open up and programme Mark David Chapman.

--------------------------

Albert - the terminology matters.

With respect, in my judgement the phrase "MK-ULTRA programmed himself" mixes oranges and apples in a deeply unhelpful way.

I don't see what the big deal is. The example was obviously figurative. Besides, in the MK-ULTRA LSD world apples can very easily morph into oranges. It's a very indeterminate place.

Because mind control programming involves, at the very least, a programmer and a subject.

If someone takes drugs and becomes psychotic, that person has not "MK-ULTRA programmed himself". Your statement is highly misleading.

The main point being the point Chapman's mind had reached was similar to that induced by the MK Mengele's.

Albert - the fundamental point is whether Chapman was programmed by another person. Or not. If not, then "MK Mengeles" (whatever that phrase may mean) have nothing to do with it.

However, describing this as "MK-ULTRA self programming" does not aid our understanding of this process. The common cultural phrase for such a person is Acid Casualty.

Would not an MK-ULTRA victim also be an "acid casualty" of sorts?

No.

Syd Barrett was an acid casulty.

Syd Barrett was not, in the absence of new evidence, an MK-ULTRA casualty.

This is splitting hairs. The real business here is evidence Bresler found of typical CIA involvement in Chapman's being set-up as a Sirhan-like lunatic. What I find most telling about it is no one ever challenged Bresler's evidence.

It's absolutely not splitting hairs. Your argument is muddying the waters, rather than making the waters clearer.

[Albert Doyle]

I don't think what I wrote either conflicts with what Jan writes or deserves the gross overreaction Jan commits.


I backed-off answering your Chapman reply at the time because I thought it wasn't worth it. However I believe it was based on putting words in my mouth and overblowing minor points. I believe Chapman was a CIA-programmed assassin. I don't see the giant offense Jan is trying to force through semantics and distortion of meanings. I'm perfectly capable of explaining my views on Chapman. I'm failing to see what offense Jan is showing here or how I've muddied the waters? My self-MKULTRA programming point was made hypothetically. I think Jan was so anxious to disagree with me that he failed to fathom the context. The context was besides CIA programming self-induced programming under LSD was the only other option. However my other clearly seen information shows that there was much evidence to show CIA manipulation. God, Jan, bash me over the head for making a simple hypothetical point!


I'd like to enter a protest of moderator abuse and a certain poster being allowed to re-appear and do the things he was moderated for.