Why the second floor lunch room encounter could not have happened

[Bob Prudhomme]

My money is on Carolyn Arnold being correct and seeing 'Oswald' in the lunch-room at 12:25. He's in there during the assassination and is seen by Baker & Truly whenever exactly that encounter did occur.

It makes sense to me that his Intel handlers had him in a place that would keep him away from both the portal and 6th floor and have no alibi. They failed to predict Carolyn Arnold's thirst because of her pregnancy. Part of Truly's job that day might have been encouraging everyone to watch the motorcade.

This is a good argument you make. Sure makes things tough when we all have equally good arguments, doesn't it.

[Albert Doyle]

Dare I say the fact Prayer Man is a woman probably tips it in my favor.


When Truly says "When I reached there" is he possibly talking about going further into the vestibule foyer and letting the automatic door close behind him? Is he talking about reaching right up next to Baker and 'Oswald' in the lunch-room door? Did Truly know Baker had his gun in 'Oswald's' gut because he walked close enough next to them to see it? When Truly is "leaning in" he only says Baker was facing 'Oswald'. After he "reaches there" he sees Baker holding a gun on 'Oswald'. Did Truly walk into the vestibule and up to Baker and 'Oswald'? And if he did how much time would that give Adams and Styles?

[Drew Phipps]

I'm still of the opinion that time, not space, is the relevant factor here. If either Truly/Baker or Adams/Styles are off on their timing by, say, a minute, they wouldn't have to encounter each other at all.

[Ray Mitcham]

As I recently said on another forum, the second floor meeting was a farce. Read Baker's first day affidavit.

"Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."


Not a mention by a trained cop of the meeting in the second floor lunch room.

Discussions regarding whether Baker could see through the glass door are totally meaningless. It didn't happen, folks. It was made up later to convict Oswald.

[Drew Phipps]

Ray, if you can explain to me why encountering Oswald on the second floor within 90 seconds of shooting from the 6th floor, is somehow more incriminating than encountering Oswald on the fourth floor, I'll be happy to agree with you. Far as I can see, having a cop testify Oswald was on the second floor there within 90 seconds of the shooting is the best alibi he could ever hope for.

[Bob Prudhomme]

I'm still of the opinion that time, not space, is the relevant factor here. If either Truly/Baker or Adams/Styles are off on their timing by, say, a minute, they wouldn't have to encounter each other at all.

This is true but, Dorothy Garner stated that Truly and Baker arrived at the 4th floor after Adams and Styles had gone down the stairs. How much after will always remain a mystery.

[Albert Doyle]

When I was in High School one of my teachers told the class some kids said they were late for school because they had a flat tire. The prinicipal pulled the late boys into his office separately and asked them which tire had the flat?


Laying in bed this am I realized Truly's testimony omitted the 4th floor landing encounter but included the lunch-room confrontation. Baker, on the other hand, omitted the lunch-room encounter but included the 4th floor incident.


These two witnesses did what my High School teacher taught us. They each named a different tire for the flat.


Perhaps the Intel conspirators couldn't bring themselves to murder a pregnant woman witness in Carolyn Arnold and the realization that she saw Oswald in the lunch-room was the reason they resolved the problem by agreeing on the lunch-room. That's why by the time of Truly's testimony he omits the 4th floor encounter. It's very important to note that Baker never names the individual who walked away from the 4th floor landing and the Commission never pushes him on it. I'm convinced this was the second Oswald whose witnessing created an immediate problem for Baker and Truly.


We also don't know what 'Oswald' said during his police station interrogation in front of many police witnesses. He could have said he was in the lunch-room the whole time and named the witnesses, including Carolyn Arnold, Baker, and Truly. Hence the delay in Fritz's notes as well as Baker's coming forth with the lunch-room encounter and the strange disappearance of all notes from the interrogation.

[Ray Mitcham]

Ray, if you can explain to me why encountering Oswald on the second floor within 90 seconds of shooting from the 6th floor, is somehow more incriminating than encountering Oswald on the fourth floor, I'll be happy to agree with you. Far as I can see, having a cop testify Oswald was on the second floor there within 90 seconds of the shooting is the best alibi he could ever hope for.

Drew, I'm not trying to give Oswald a better alibi. I'm showing that Baker was not telling the truth, either in his first day affidavit or his subsequent testimony. I would tend to believe his first day affidavit, but that is just my opinion.

I don't believe Oswald was anywhere near the second or fourth floor, but in the dining room on the first floor.

[Ray Mitcham]

When I was in High School one of my teachers told the class some kids said they were late for school because they had a flat tire. The prinicipal pulled the late boys into his office separately and asked them which tire had the flat?


Laying in bed this am I realized Truly's testimony omitted the 4th floor landing encounter but included the lunch-room confrontation. Baker, on the other hand, omitted the lunch-room encounter but included the 4th floor incident.


These two witnesses did what my High School teacher taught us. They each named a different tire for the flat.


Perhaps the Intel conspirators couldn't bring themselves to murder a pregnant woman witness in Carolyn Arnold and the realization that she saw Oswald in the lunch-room was the reason they resolved the problem by agreeing on the lunch-room. That's why by the time of Truly's testimony he omits the 4th floor encounter. It's very important to note that Baker never names the individual who walked away from the 4th floor landing and the Commission never pushes him on it. I'm convinced this was the second Oswald whose witnessing created an immediate problem for Baker and Truly.


We also don't know what 'Oswald' said during his police station interrogation in front of many police witnesses. He could have said he was in the lunch-room the whole time and named the witnesses, including Carolyn Arnold, Baker, and Truly. Hence the delay in Fritz's notes as well as Baker's coming forth with the lunch-room encounter and the strange disappearance of all notes from the interrogation.

Glad to see we agree on something, Albert.

[Albert Doyle]

I'm not sure we do. I think Oswald was both in the lunch-room and on the 4th floor landing according to Armstrong's theory.