Why the second floor lunch room encounter could not have happened

[Ray Mitcham]

I'm not sure we do. I think Oswald was both in the lunch-room and on the 4th floor landing according to Armstrong's theory.

Glad to see we do disagree, then, Albert.

[Drew Phipps]

Drew, I'm not trying to give Oswald a better alibi. I'm showing that Baker was not telling the truth, either in his first day affidavit or his subsequent testimony. I would tend to believe his first day affidavit, but that is just my opinion.

I don't believe Oswald was anywhere near the second or fourth floor, but in the dining room on the first floor.

You misunderstand me. I'm wondering why anyone would ask, or order, Baker to change his story to give Oswald a better alibi.

[Albert Doyle]

You misunderstand me. I'm wondering why anyone would ask, or order, Baker to change his story to give Oswald a better alibi.

If I may answer, it is because, with Carolyn Arnold putting Oswald in the lunch-room, it was the lesser danger to put Oswald further away from the 6th floor instead of showing evidence of a second Oswald on the 4th floor landing.

[Drew Phipps]

Why not just ignore Arnold (as the Warren Commission did with many civilian witnesses) and leave Baker's far more plausible encounter with Oswald on the 4th floor?

[Albert Doyle]

Why not just ignore Arnold (as the Warren Commission did with many civilian witnesses) and leave Baker's far more plausible encounter with Oswald on the 4th floor?

Because Carloyn Arnold probably told many people and eventually, as Golz proved, it would have gotten out. Maybe Truly spoke about it too and possibly Oswald at the police station.

The conspirators and the Commission were working on tenterhooks because they were trying to get away with not revealing any interrogation notes. These were decisions that were made under incredible stress and were probably being made under the condition of what can we get away with. Perhaps they weren't sure who else might come forth and say "Wait a minute, I saw Oswald in the lunch-room".

The 4th floor Oswald was only seen by internally-controllable witnesses Truly and Baker. The lunch-room Oswald was a wild card because he was witnessed by civilians. That's why they didn't name the 4th floor person.

[Alan Ford]

As I recently said on another forum, the second floor meeting was a farce. Read Baker's first day affidavit.

"Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."


Not a mention by a trained cop of the meeting in the second floor lunch room.

Discussions regarding whether Baker could see through the glass door are totally meaningless. It didn't happen, folks. It was made up later to convict Oswald.

::bowtie::

[Albert Doyle]

I'd have to disagree with the theory Baker and Truly delayed several minutes before going upstairs in the Depository. Gilbride makes a good point when he says the mundane detail of Baker getting stopped by the locked front desk swinging door is something that couldn't be made up by people fabricating a story. Besides, Baker said he thought the shots came from "up high". That means when he ran towards the front entrance he was intent on going up high and quick. Also, there were no witnesses to the delay. It also follows suit that Depository manager Truly, once seeing an officer run towards the building in his charge, would follow quickly to aid that officer.

Frazier might not volunteer anything about any movement of the police because of the understood situation of the power of the Dallas Police and not wanting to get involved. In Dallas the cops bear witness against you and not the other way around if you know what's good for you. Don't forget Frazier had a little meeting with the Dallas cops in his father's hospital room.


There is the possibility however that Baker took two minutes instead of one and a half. This would potentially allow a quickly-departing Adams and Styles to get out of the 1st floor just ahead of the arriving Baker and Truly and might solve that problem.

[Bob Prudhomme]

I'd have to disagree with the theory Baker and Truly delayed several minutes before going upstairs in the Depository. Gilbride makes a good point when he says the mundane detail of Baker getting stopped by the locked front desk swinging door is something that couldn't be made up by people fabricating a story. Besides, Baker said he thought the shots came from "up high". That means when he ran towards the front entrance he was intent on going up high and quick. Also, there were no witnesses to the delay. It also follows suit that Depository manager Truly, once seeing an officer run towards the building in his charge, would follow quickly to aid that officer.

Frazier might not volunteer anything about any movement of the police because of the understood situation of the power of the Dallas Police and not wanting to get involved. In Dallas the cops bear witness against you and not the other way around if you know what's good for you. Don't forget Frazier had a little meeting with the Dallas cops in his father's hospital room.


There is the possibility however that Baker took two minutes instead of one and a half. This would potentially allow a quickly-departing Adams and Styles to get out of the 1st floor just ahead of the arriving Baker and Truly and might solve that problem.

Meaningless arguments. B & T could just as easily have bumped into the counter four minutes after the last shot, as 30 seconds after. The story about the pigeons and the shot being up high has nothing to do with when he entered the building, either. In fact, from a security viewpoint, his energy would have been better spent securing all of the entrances to the building in those first few minutes, instead of rushing in blindly and allowing someone to escape. Perhaps this is what he was actually doing.

Roy Truly's story of following Officer Baker does not hold water, either.

From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders.
Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders.
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out to lunch.
Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes."

"Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No."

So, Joe Molina was standing right in the entrance to the TSBD, and likely had to get out of the way of people coming into the building. He sees Roy Truly come into the building, but does not see Officer Marrion Baker enter with him, despite the fact Baker is in uniform, which includes a white helmet, boots and jodhpurs.

Was Baker invisible?

[Drew Phipps]

You have to remember, Molina was a commie too, right? Kidding!

I'm also interested in the part of Molina's testimony that he saw DPD closing the gate to the TSBD parking lot.

Wonder what it was about the apparently innocuous statement of Molina that got people's hackles up?

[Albert Doyle]

We know Baker and Truly did go up the stairs because Miss Garner saw them. So Baker was headed high and Truly was helping him. To me logic dictates that if Baker intended to go to the top floor to find a shooter he meant to get there sooner rather than later. Stalling in or near the front entrance would only lead to more witnesses not less.