The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313

[Chris Davidson]

CE884 says the measurements are to the back bumper...




David,

Hopefully you meant CE875.

chris

[David Josephs]

CE884 says the measurements are to the back bumper...




David,

Hopefully you meant CE875.

chris

Most definitely...

CE884 is the misleading legend on the WEST survey
CE875 is the SS images and measurements

[Steve Thompson]

David,

Have you ever come across any documentation that explains the FBI's rational for putting the 3rd shot down by the walkway ?
I've read your .PDF on WCD298 and found it absolutely fascinating !
When might the next part be published ?

Thanks,
Steve

[Chris Davidson]

Any questions feel free to ask.

Even though Mandel lists 170ft as the first shot distance instead of 167, I'm guessing he rounded it off.

chris

My guess was wrong.

Tom P. describing where the 170ft distance came from:

"For example, try reading Mr. Breneman's letter!

Had Mr. Breneman had either a copy of the Time/Life Survey plat and/or the field notes, then he would have known that the TIME/LIFE survey showed a line-of-sight distance from the sixth floor window to the point of impact on Elm St as being exactly 170 feet, NOT the 156 feet that he states.
The 156 feet from the TIME/LIFE survey is the "slope" distance from the point of impact on the street, back to the intersection of the sidewalk with the corner of the TSDB at the bottom corner of the building. "

chris

[David Josephs]

David,

Have you ever come across any documentation that explains the FBI's rational for putting the 3rd shot down by the walkway ?
I've read your .PDF on WCD298 and found it absolutely fascinating !
When might the next part be published ?

Thanks,
Steve

Thanks for the kind words Steve and for reading the work.....

I think the changes to the WEST survey at the request of the FBI can be considered documentation





add the fact that even if the FBI/SS puts the limo's rear bumper at Z313, the front bumper is still 20 feet from WCD298's 3rd shot




and finally simple verbal confirmation even after the evidence has been worked over, Kellerman puts Hill on the limo between the 2nd and 3rd (flurry of) shots,
before the limo accelerates Hill must be on the limo.

In AARB's MD152 we have the FBI's Sibert/O'Neill report on their Nov 27 interviews with Greer, Kellerman, and Behn if you want to see how their testimony jives with this earlier report.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.

Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in.
Senator COOPER. About the time it came in?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Not before?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.


Whether a shot existed there or was created in the evidence is unknown. The limo stopping, the limo turning onto Elm too widely, Zapruder & Sitzman claiming he ran the camera continuously once the he started as the cycles turned the corner, the perfect Muchmore film despite her saying she didn't film it, Altgens testimony, Brehm, impossible headsnaps and body movements, Chaney's actions, Hargis' confirmation.

As Chris has shown, by moving between 3 points horizontally (bumper/JFK/bumper) and vertically (street/JFK) the disappearance of the wide turn in Zap, Towner and Hughes are gone. Why would Truly make that up and how is it gone in Towner remain amazing mysteries to me Steve....


Working on Part 3 - will try to get it done in Feb.
DJ




Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

[Chris Davidson]

David,

I think we'll get a better idea of what you summarized in regards to horizontal/vertical points (measuring sticks) with a few examples:

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any difference between the position of President Kennedy's stand-in and the position of President Kennedy on the day of the assassination by virtue of any difference in the automobiles in which each rode?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; because of the difference in the automobiles there was a variation of 10 inches, a vertical distance of 10 inches that had to be considered. The stand-in for President Kennedy was sitting 10 inches higher and. the stand-in for Governor Connally was sitting 10 inches higher than the President and Governor Connally were sitting and we took this into account in our calculations.

Elm St slope = 3.13degrees = 1ft vertical per 18.3ft horizontal

10"/12" =.833ft

.833ft x 18.3 = 15.2499ft

15.249ft = DISTANCE FROM JFK WITHIN LIMO TO LIMO FRONT BUMPER

chris

[Chris Davidson]

Continuing on:

The length of the limo 21.3ft/18.3ft(1 vertical ft. per 3.13 degree Elm St. slope) = 1.162 vertical ft.

chris

[Steve Thompson]

David,

Not sure if you've seen this video, but MK Davis points out - what he believes to be - a shot hitting the street in the Nix film near the FBI's 3rd shot location on Elm.
He discusses it just after the 5 minute mark.

I'd be curious to hear your take...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo0_D9h2Kk

[David Josephs]

David,

Not sure if you've seen this video, but MK Davis points out - what he believes to be - a shot hitting the street in the Nix film near the FBI's 3rd shot location on Elm.
He discusses it just after the 5 minute mark.

I'd be curious to hear your take...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo0_D9h2Kk

I had not seen it, no.

According to the Evidence I am auditing here, the shot down by the stairs "impacted" within 4 feet of 5+00 and as WCD298 says, the third shot (2nd to hit JFK) was this shot

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html...2&tab=page


The scenario as told by WCD298 and WCD1 is that there were 3 shots, 3 hits; JFK-JC-JFK with the last shot taking his head off according to all the available evidence. I doubt highly the FBI & SS were able to pick out that white puff as a missed shot and then go ahead and place it as an impact at the same spot....

I cannot prove that isn't a shot but I doubt it was when we have telltale marks on the Manhole cover area and Tague curb.

Besides, according to all involved this shot hits JFK's head. As we all agree there were many more than 3 shots, if Mr. Davis did find a miss, kudos to him.

More important to my work is the coroborrating evidence presented in this graphic. The location of 5+00 was shown in a previous graphic and overlaid here.

5+00, the SS's #3 written on FBI photo of Elm, the lack of a photo at 5+00 and WCD298 all point to a shot hitting JFK down by Altgens which Altgens confirms.

How did they make it appear he was LAST hit at Z313? Remove the Limo stop with everyone lurching forward, remove Chaney moving forward, remove the shot at 5+00 minus 4'

[Chris Davidson]

David,

I think we'll get a better idea of what you summarized in regards to horizontal/vertical points (measuring sticks) with a few examples:

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any difference between the position of President Kennedy's stand-in and the position of President Kennedy on the day of the assassination by virtue of any difference in the automobiles in which each rode?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; because of the difference in the automobiles there was a variation of 10 inches, a vertical distance of 10 inches that had to be considered. The stand-in for President Kennedy was sitting 10 inches higher and. the stand-in for Governor Connally was sitting 10 inches higher than the President and Governor Connally were sitting and we took this into account in our calculations.

Elm St slope = 3.13degrees = 1ft vertical per 18.3ft horizontal

10"/12" =.833ft

.833ft x 18.3 = 15.2499ft

15.249ft = DISTANCE FROM JFK WITHIN LIMO TO LIMO FRONT BUMPER

chris

Mr. KELLEY. The officials at Hess Eisenhardt, who have the original plans of the President's car, conducted a test to ascertain how high from the ground a person 72 1/2 inches would be seated in this car before its modification. And

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it was ascertained that the person would be 52.78 inches from the ground--that is, taking into consideration the flexion of the tires, the flexion of the cushions that were on the car at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say 52.78 inches, which individual would that be?
Mr. KELLEY. That would be the President.
Mr. SPECTER. And what part of his body?
Mr. KELLEY. The top of the head would be 52.78 inches from the ground.

JFK's head height (refer to previous posting) at head shot = 3.27ft above ground = 39.24 inches
JFK's head height above ground = 52.78 inches.

Vertical range = 13.54 inches.

chris