The Vehicle on the Grassy Knoll

[Adele Edisen]

I am wondering how much is known about the vehicle parked on top of the Grassy Knoll, just west of the pergola and the sidewalk leading to the steps on the north side of Elm Street, during the assassination of President Kennedy.

It is seen in the Nix film of the assassination, in the Bell film, and in some others. Perhaps I have missed the early discussions about this vehicle in the forums I have attended in the past 8 or 9 years (or longer, am not sure). but it seems that this vehicle would be of major interest to JFK researchers. Information about it appears to be quite meager.

I'll withhold what little I have learned about this vehicle until I can find out what has already been discussed previously and is available on the internet or in books and articles. If anyone could contribute any information, I would really appreciate that.

Adele Edisen

[David Guyatt]

Adele, I am in no position to provide any information whatsoever. But your post has intrigued me, and I look forward to reading more when you're ready to share what you have on the car in question.

David

PS, a hearty welcome to our forum btw.

[Linda Minor]

I found the Bell Film here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhmeQicc6YE
Nix film here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xboWTRPEWW0
I can see a vehicle, but the films pan across it so quickly, all I can make out is the color--a light blue or green--which is the same color as the vehicle in which Roger Craig said Oswald got into, and which Oswald allegedly said belonged to Ruth Paine.

http://spot.acorn.net/JFKplace/09/fp.bac...craig.html
... Deputy Craig was one of many officers standing in front of the Dallas Sheriff's office at Main and Houston streets at the time of the assassination. When the shooting stopped there was great confusion in Dealey Plaza. Craig ran toward Elm Street where dozens of people surged up the grassy knoll, and followed a policeman to behind a fence, where, he told the Warren Commission, he "began moving people back out of the railroad yard." He detained a woman who was attempting to leave the area and handed her over to another officer for questioning. A short time later he encountered Arnold Rowland along Elm Street, who "said he saw two men on the--uh--sixth floor of the Book Depository Building over there; one of them had a rifle with a telescopic sight on it" --and turned Rowland and his wife over to another officer so that their statements could be taken.[1]

From here Craig went across and down Elm Street to investigate a report that a bullet had ricocheted off the sidewalk curb. It was at this point that Craig made his most critical observation.

Mr. Belin. You heard someone whistle?
Mr. Craig. Yes. So I turned and--uh--saw a man start to run down the hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street.
Mr. Belin. And, about where was he with relation to the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. Craig. Uh--directly across that little side street that runs in front of it. He was on the south side of it.

[some material omitted][2]

Mr. Belin. All right. And then what did you see happen?
Mr. Craig. I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, coming west on Elm Street from Houston. Uh--actually, it was nearly in line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the hill at the man running down.
Mr. Belin. Uh-huh.
Mr. Craig. And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from me. And--uh--the man continued down the hill and got in the station wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both of them. But the--uh--traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the street. And--uh--they were gone before I could--
Mr. Belin. Where did the station wagon head?
Mr. Craig. West on Elm Street.
Mr. Belin. Under the triple underpass?
Mr. Craig. Yes.[3]

Deputy Craig immediately ran to the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD), where police attention had begun to focus, and reported what he had seen. Years later he wrote:

There was a man standing on the steps of the Book Depository Building and he turned to me and said, "I'm with the Secret Service." This man was about 40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit. I was naive enough at the time to believe that the only people there were actually officers--after all, this was the command post. I gave him the information. He showed little interest in the persons leaving. However, he seemed extremely interested in the description of the Rambler. This was the only part of my statement which he wrote down in his little pad he was holding.

Here Craig may have had an encounter with a conspirator. According to the Warren Report, "Secret Service Agents assigned to the motorcade remained at their posts during the race to the hospital. None stayed at the scene of the shooting..."[4]...

[Adele Edisen]

Thank you, David and Linda. You've made me feel at home, and I appreciate your interest in this issue.

Maybe about two years ago on another forum I brought up the problem of the vehicle on the knoll after I had found a fuller screen version of the Nix film. The version I had seen previously had been edited so that the upper portion of the Grassy Knoll and this vehicle were not visible, and the newer version made me quite curious as to why the vehicle and full view of the Grassy Knoll had been covered up.

My interest was dismissed; I was told that this had been discussed some time before; no one on that forum seemed to get excited about this vehicle and why it was located where it was and then remained in view during the Nix filming of the head shot to the President's brain and even afterwards. It was also located in a spot I thought could have been ideal for the frontal shot to the throat of the President which had occurred shortly after the presidential limousine had turned onto Elm Street from Houston Street, although I had no direct evidence that this would have been the location of one of the shooters. However, a figure has been observed with the vehicle in some photos by others.

From reading I learned that the Dallas police were not allowing cars to enter the Elm Street spur in front of the School Book Depository Building which leads to the back of the pergola and to the parking lot behind the wooden stockade fence on the Grassy Knoll just before the motorcade was due to arrive. However, spectators had been driving up to park their cars prior to this time. Therefore, this vehicle could have arrived before the motorcade appeared in Dealey Plaza, or an exception could have been made for a well known Dallas citizen by the police.

I have personally walked around all of this area when attending meetings on the assassination held in Dallas. On my first trip in 1991, I went behind the pergola and came out on Elm Street that way. As I did so, I thought that if I still had my 1969 Pontiac Widetrack station wagon, I could have driven it onto the Grassy Knoll. There was enough space there for such a large car. This was years before I ever saw the Nix film.

As often happens, without seeking specific information on the internet, I stumbled across two eyewitness reports. Jean Hill, the schoolteacher who was with her friend, Mary Moorman, as spectators on the south side of Elm Street across from the Grassy Knoll. In her statements she mentioned that before the motorcade arrived, she and Mary had walked around the Plaza, looking for an ideal spot. She noticed a vehicle which had a name on its side and the side and back windows were covered up with cardboard. This vehicle apparently had "Honest Joe's Pawnshop" painted on it. It was circling around the Plaza, advertising the pawn shop.

Another eyewitness reported the same thing. This man was a former Marine who had been in combat and knew about the sounds of rifle firing. His position was on the north side of Elm Street, and he, too, noticed the conspicuous station wagon with the words. "Honest Joe's Pawnshop" driving back and forth and around the Plaza. He gave his report to the Dallas police, but he was not called to testify by the Warren Commission, At the moment I don't recall his name, and it was so long ago, but I shall try to find his testimony again.

My suspicion is that the vehicle on the Grassy Knoll was "Honest Joe's". The cardboard-covered windows are certainly suspicious. Honest Joe was a pawnbroker by the name of Rubin Silverstein* (I hope my memory is correct about the last name) who was also called "Ruby". He was a good friend of Jack Ruby's and served as the evaluator and possibly the executor of Jack Ruby's estate after he died.

In her book, Nightmare in Dallas, Beverly Oliver describes running to the Grassy Knoll immediately after the president's limousine had sped away and saw "Geneva White's husband" dressed in what appeared to be an incomplete policeman's uniform and without a pistol. That would have been Roscoe White who had been hired by the Dallas Police Department as a clerk and photographer in October, 1963. He was not yet a police officer as his training period had not been completed, so he was not allowed to have a uniform at all. He became a police officer upon completion of his training in 1964. His wife, Geneva, had worked for Jack Ruby at his Carousel Club.

There is more to say, but I shall stop here for now. I hope I've aroused your curiosity because this vehicle, so often seen by Dallas residents, probably was just ignored by many of them and by the police, and few, if any at all, as far as I know, have paid much attention to it, including assassination researchers.

Honest Joe's station wagon was an Edsel (remember the Edsel by Ford Motor Company?). It had a mock machine gun on its roof, as Honest Joe dealt in guns of all sorts. Some Edsel station wagons were used as ambulances by hospitals because of their large and roomy capacity.

The vehicle appears white in photographs, but could have been a pale color, yellow, green, or blue. This point should be researched.

Adele

*Correction - ("Honest Joe" was Rubin Goldstein, I believe. Some have referred to him as Silverstein, which was the name I recalled by mistake above. - AE)

[David Guyatt]

Consider my curiosity very definitely aroused Adele.

The connections positively pulsate with intrigue. I was also amused by the name "Honest Joe's Pawnshop" - as though it were remotely possible that a pawnbroker and honesty go hand in hand...

David

[Adele Edisen]

Linda wrote:

I found the Bell Film here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhmeQicc6YE
Nix film here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xboWTRPEWW0
I can see a vehicle, but the films pan across it so quickly, all I can make out is the color--a light blue or green--which is the same color as the vehicle in which Roger Craig said Oswald got into, and which Oswald allegedly said belonged to Ruth Paine.

Linda,
I meant to suggest something to you earlier, but forgot. I have done this and it might help discern the color of the vehicle a bit better. While watching the Nix film, for example, place your cursor on the play button which is now two upright parallel lines, and click on it. It will stop the video wherever you wish and then you can view the frame for as long as you want. I only see the auto as white, but depending on the film/video and other factors, the color hues may appear differently. I don't recall if there was any mention made of the color of the "Honest Joe's" wagon in what I read, which is why I suggested it might be a little project for someone to follow up on.

In Jim Marrs' book, Crossfire, page 38, Jean Hill's observations are mentioned. She recalled the name on the car as "Uncle Joe's Pawn Shop." She went on to say she was suspicious of it because it was allowed by the police to drive in front of the TSBD Building and then went behind the concrete pergola on the north side of Elm Street. "She jokingly said to Moorman (Mary Moorman, her friend with her), "Do you suppose there are murderers in that van?"

Wasn't the station wagon belonging to Mrs. Paine a Rambler? Was the wagon described by Craig a Rambler? You know, it has been almost 45 years ago, but I have a vague memory of discussions about a Studebaker vehicle picking up someone near the TSBD Building - I may be wrong about this, though. Studebaker cars stopped being produced around that time.

Articles on prior motorcade activities in the parking lot near the railroad tracks witnessed by Lee Bowers, a railroad supervisor, mention a blue-and-white 1959 Oldsmobile station wagon with out-of-state license plates and bumper stickers, one for Goldwater, driving in and leaving the parking area. A black 1957 Ford cruised around that parking lot and left by way of the Elm Street spur in front of the TSBD Building. Its white male driver seemed to have a microphone into which he spoke. A third car noted by Bowers was a mud splashed 1961 or 1962 white four-door Chevrolet Impala sedan with out-of-state plates similar to those of the first vehicle. Its driver was a white male who spent much time driving about. Bowers saw the car heading toward the Elm Street spur exit, but "pausing just above the assassination site." At this point Bowers became busy and did not notice if this car actually left the vicinity. (pages 75-76 in Jim Marrs' Crossfire.)

This car, being white, could be the one to which I referred in this thread.
However, Secret Service Agent-in-Charge of the Dallas office, Forrest Sorrels, took an interest in Honest Joe's wagon and in Honest Joe himself. This may be found in his testimony before the Warren Commission. Sorrels was a passenger in the lead car driven by Chief Curry in front of the presidential limousine, and while scanning the Grassy Knoll fir potential shooters, he certainly would have noticed the Honest Joe wagon.

Incidentally, Forrest Sorrels knew Orville Nix, a heating and air conditioning maintenance engineer who worked in the building occupied by the Dallas Secret Service. It was Forrest Sorrels who helped Nix get his film
accepted by the FBI; they did not really want to exam it initially. (I wonder why?)

Adele

[Linda Minor]

Jean Hill, the schoolteacher who was with her friend, Mary Moorman, as spectators on the south side of Elm Street across from the Grassy Knoll. In her statements she mentioned that before the motorcade arrived, she and Mary had walked around the Plaza, looking for an ideal spot. She noticed a vehicle which had a name on its side and the side and back windows were covered up with cardboard. This vehicle apparently had "Honest Joe's Pawnshop" painted on it. It was circling around the Plaza, advertising the pawn shop.

Another eyewitness reported the same thing. This man was a former Marine who had been in combat and knew about the sounds of rifle firing. His position was on the north side of Elm Street, and he, too, noticed the conspicuous station wagon with the words. "Honest Joe's Pawnshop" driving back and forth and around the Plaza. He gave his report to the Dallas police, but he was not called to testify by the Warren Commission, At the moment I don't recall his name, and it was so long ago, but I shall try to find his testimony again.

My suspicion is that the vehicle on the Grassy Knoll was "Honest Joe's". The cardboard-covered windows are certainly suspicious. Honest Joe was a pawnbroker by the name of Rubin Silverstein (I hope my memory is correct about the last name) who was also called "Ruby". He was a good friend of Jack Ruby's and served as the evaluator and possibly the executor of Jack Ruby's estate after he died.

I'll begin with Mary Ferrell's website--http://www.maryferrell.org
You have to subscribe to do searches, but anyone can view from links provided.

Search Results: "honest joe"
Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XIII pg 67
Found in: Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits
from the third floor, and had been looking out of the window, and that I had seen Honest Joe, who is a Jewish merchant there, who operates a second-hand loan pawn shop, so to speak, specializing in
Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XIX pg 486
Found in: Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits
Underpass. About five or ten minutes before the President came by I observed a truck from Honest Joe's Pawn Shop, and parked by the Book Depository Store. Then drove off about five or ten minutes before
Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XII pg 432
Found in: Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits
. Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you acquainted with the name of a guy named Honest Joe? Mr. DEAN. Right. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you remember about that. Mr. DEAN. Well, he said, "Well, I know Honest Joe
Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXI pg 536
Found in: Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits
vas not. He oeomod to hesitate and I told him that I had coon honest Joe (Rubin Goldstein, a well known Jewish pawnbroker and used tools dealer on Elm trout) across the street just a short time before


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...geId=21277
Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XIII pg 67
Sorrels says Honest Joe had an Edsel.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...eId=251906
Dean's testimony about the conversation between Sorrels and Jack Ruby pertaining to Honest Joe (Rubin Goldstein).

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...eId=142960
SAIC Forrest V. Sorrels Secret Service report of Ruby interview about Honest Joe shortly after Ruby shot Oswald.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...eId=145993
Mary Moorman's testimony of seeing the Honest Joe car in the area.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...geId=17968
Stern's questioning of Sorrels.

Other links to Ferrell:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...eId=519420
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...eId=521533
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...lt&id=4236

[Linda Minor]

I learned from google searching that there was a book written about the area where Honest Joe's Pawnshop was located, Deep Ellum in Dallas. Apparently, the pawnshops there, about a mile away from Dealey Plaza, were part of the criminal syndicate controlled by Benny Binion. When I searched Mary Ferrell's website, I pulled up this little jewel:
First page: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...elPageId=2
You can pull up the various pages on the frames to the left or view by clicking "next". Notice this interesting tidbit at page 6:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...elPageId=6
Benny Binion, alleged head of Honest Joe's loanshark network, was well acquainted with Lyndon Johnson, J. Edgar Hoover's friend Clint Murchison of Texas, and numerous politicos in Nevada.

[Adele Edisen]

I have some references on Honest Joe, Rubin Goldstein, to add to Linda's impressive list. These may also be found at the Mary Ferrell website, as well as in the journals, The Third Decade and The Fourth Decade.


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...elPageId=7

Honest Joe: The Merchant of Elm Street
Jerry Rose, Ph.D.
The Third Decade, Volume 7, Issue 2, pp 5-7.
January 1990
---------------------------------------------------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...lPageId=46

Who Was Honest Joe?
Greg Doyle
The Third Decade, Volume 9, Issue 1, pp 44-48
November, 1992
--------------------------------------------------------

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...lPageId=13

More On "Honest Joe"
Greg Doyle
The Fourth Decade, Volume 1, Issue 5, pp 13-16
July, 1994
--------------------------------------------------------

The name of the other witness to the Honest Joe's Pawn Shop vehicle in Dealey Plaza was A. J. Millican. He claimed to have heard a total of 8 shots being fired at the President that day, which may be why he was never called before the Warren Commission. He gave his report to the Dallas Sheriff's office. Some of that report is cited on page 28 in Jim Marrs' book, Crossfire. I shall try to locate the full report on the Mary Ferrell website.

This is the report given by A.J. Millican to the Dallas Sheriff's office:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...eId=141254

Linda, you are a fountain of information. It will take me a while to read through all that you provided. It is very much appreciated. Thank you.

Adele

[Mark Stapleton]

Great thread. The plot sickens.