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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pRyvd2A7lg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZYQiQmXP...re=related
I haven't yet read Harvey and Lee and wonder if this has been covered there but it is an interesting story from this guy. Vinson was an Air Force sgt and hitching a ride on a CIA plane on Nov 22nd 1961 when it made a detour to an airport near Dallas. While there 2 passengers joined the plane. One Latino and one an Oswald look alike. Vinson states that the CIA paid him money for his silence while still receiving his military wages. He remained silent until the 1990's. Douglass mentions him in his book.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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Magda
U.S. Air Force sergeant Robert G. Vinson of the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) is treated in James Douglass, JFK and the Unspeakable, pages 298-304.
Douglass' notes 490-525 of Chapter 6: Washington and Dallas, the Vinson section, track back to five sources, a book an affidavit, a videotaped statement, an interview and an article.
James P. Johnston and Jon Roe, Flight from Dallas: New Evidence of CIA Involvement in the Murder of President John F. Kennedy (Bloomington, Ind.: 1stBooks, 2003) et al.
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Thanks Phil! I'm reading the 'Unspeakable' now. Lots of treasures within it. Vinson was new to me.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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How should one evaluate Vinson's story? The idea of an airplane landing along the Trinity River just seems like something that could be verified. I don't recall Douglass providing that kind of verification. This kind of apparent innovation of getting the second Oswald out of Dallas just seems like a bit much.
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Lauren Johnson Wrote:How should one evaluate Vinson's story? The idea of an airplane landing along the Trinity River just seems like something that could be verified. I don't recall Douglass providing that kind of verification. This kind of apparent innovation of getting the second Oswald out of Dallas just seems like a bit much.
Anything is possible. That does not mean its probable.
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This story was broken at a JFK Lancer conference, if memory serves.
I've never been comfortable with what for a better word I term its "novelistic" aspects. Over the years I've been approached by a handful of people trying to peddle insider info. In at least two of those instances, the stories were the stuff of film treatments.
If it reads like a screenplay, it probably is.
How much was Vinson paid for his silence? Was it more than the price of two bullets?
Or did this really happen, and Vinson was left to tell the tale in order to add more complexity, doubt and friction to our erstwhile investigations?
After all, even if he's reporting actual events, how has his story brought us closer to truth and justice in this case?
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Charles Drago Wrote:This story was broken at a JFK Lancer conference, if memory serves.
After all, even if he's reporting actual events, how has his story brought us closer to truth and justice in this case?
You of course are correct. However, I am semi-leading a book study group of people who are liberals pretty much. We just discussed chapter 3. None of them had heard of Operation Northwoods. They were pissed, furious, betrayed. This is their first time around with the Kennedy assassination as CIA, etc. plot. Most of them are pretty much in a state of shock.
The part of the Vinson story that is least credible to me is the diversion of a CIA aircraft and the improvisation of an air field next to the Trinity River. I was looking for some kind of verification or refutation to help them work through this nightmare.
Peace
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Lauren,
You are in the enviable position of opening the doors of perception for a group of what appear to be thoughtful, courageous readers.
You might reassure them that even the most well-read and otherwise experienced deep political observers are often hard-pressed to avoid victimization by clever agents of disinformation. Over the years I've been fooled often, more than once in the most embarrassing of ways. As a result I've developed skin that arguably is too thick -- skin that at times may be impenetrable by the truth.
Alas, there are no easy formulae to apply to sexy tales such as Vinson's in order to assay their truthfulness -- beyond, that is, the application of common sense informed by as much deep political study as you can bring to the process.
Vinson may have been pitching a screenplay or novel. Literally. He may have told the truth as he knows it, but a "truth" regarding events designed to muddy the investigative waters. He may have been a witting spreader of disinformation.
What I conclude with a strong degree of confidence is that Vinson's story is worthless as an investigative lead unless we see its value as a variation of what Peter Dale Scott has termed a "negative template."
I hope this helps.
Charles
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Charles Drago Wrote:Lauren,
You are in the enviable position of opening the doors of perception for a group of what appear to be thoughtful, courageous readers.
You might reassure them that even the most well-read and otherwise experienced deep political observers are often hard-pressed to avoid victimization by clever agents of disinformation. Over the years I've been fooled often, more than once in the most embarrassing of ways. As a result I've developed skin that arguably is too thick -- skin that at times may be impenetrable by the truth.
Alas, there are no easy formulae to apply to sexy tales such as Vinson's in order to assay their truthfulness -- beyond, that is, the application of common sense informed by as much deep political study as you can bring to the process.
Vinson may have been pitching a screenplay or novel. Literally. He may have told the truth as he knows it, but a "truth" regarding events designed to muddy the investigative waters. He may have been a witting spreader of disinformation.
What I conclude with a strong degree of confidence is that Vinson's story is worthless as an investigative lead unless we see its value as a variation of what Peter Dale Scott has termed a "negative template."
I hope this helps.
Charles
Yes: I think as far as I go the Vinson story-which I recall coming across a few years back before JD's book (I'd love to remember where or when I heard it). Is probably one of the few faults I could find in the Douglas work. It has not really sat well with me at all even less after seeing the discussions about it on many a forum.
But hey, even Michaelangelo missed a few strokes. Thus JD has earned the right to make a mistake or two.
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Seamus Coogan Wrote:Charles Drago Wrote:Lauren,
You are in the enviable position of opening the doors of perception for a group of what appear to be thoughtful, courageous readers.
You might reassure them that even the most well-read and otherwise experienced deep political observers are often hard-pressed to avoid victimization by clever agents of disinformation. Over the years I've been fooled often, more than once in the most embarrassing of ways. As a result I've developed skin that arguably is too thick -- skin that at times may be impenetrable by the truth.
Alas, there are no easy formulae to apply to sexy tales such as Vinson's in order to assay their truthfulness -- beyond, that is, the application of common sense informed by as much deep political study as you can bring to the process.
Vinson may have been pitching a screenplay or novel. Literally. He may have told the truth as he knows it, but a "truth" regarding events designed to muddy the investigative waters. He may have been a witting spreader of disinformation.
What I conclude with a strong degree of confidence is that Vinson's story is worthless as an investigative lead unless we see its value as a variation of what Peter Dale Scott has termed a "negative template."
I hope this helps.
Charles
Yes: I think as far as I go the Vinson story-which I recall coming across a few years back before JD's book (I'd love to remember where or when I heard it). Is probably one of the few faults I could find in the Douglas work. It has not really sat well with me at all even less after seeing the discussions about it on many a forum.
But hey, even Michaelangelo missed a few strokes. Thus JD has earned the right to make a mistake or two.
When I was reading this particular passage a couple of years ago it so reminded me of Tosh's story. So I sent en email to both Tosh and Peter L. asking them if there was a connection, their opinion etc. Neither replied.
Madga, this is the best book on the case I think. And there are many really great books. Glad to hear you are reading it. I spoke with Jim last week and it is great to tell him about all the people who are reading it. A good companion book to this is Brothers by David Talbot.
Lauren: Charlie is so right. LIberals are notoriously uninterested in this case and that you can get a bunch to read this book is a rare feat.
Dawn
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