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Mr. Fetzer I have been to your site
#11
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Listen,

My research (often based upon that of others who have gone before me) has established (a) that there are at least fifteen indications of Secret Service complicity in setting him up for the hit, (b) that the CIA/military/mafia were involved in taking him out, © that the FBI was used to cover it up, (d) that J. Edgar and Lyndon were principals, and (e) with financing from wealthy Texas oil men. I can prove my allegations. You appear to be willing to infer from Ruby's ethnicity to Israeli control and to make other speculative inferences that I am unwilling to adopt. My only advantages in dealing with these issues are (i) that I have been working with the best qualified individuals to ever study the case, (ii) that we have reconstructed the case from the bottom up, and (iii) that I had the benefit of 35 years teaching logic, critical thinking, and scientific reasoning as background in evaluating arguments and evidence. There were more than sufficient parties who wanted to kill him without a stretch to Tel Aviv. You are welcome to your opinions. Show some respect for those of others.

Jim

Mr. Fetzer,

Regarding your terse little warning at the end: in case you are not aware, to disagree does not necessarily mean to disrespect. So far I have merely disagreed and I would appreciate your bearing that in mind.

I always blanch when a researcher says they can 'prove it' because it cannot be proven with certainty since most of the evidence has been destroyed, altered or stolen. I can't prove Zionist Israel was the main sponsor but I can argue Israel is the most likely of a range of possibilities, and that your quick dismissal of its likelihood does yourself and the research community a disservice. In saying that, I am assuming closure of this matter beyond a reasonable doubt is the ultimate goal of the research community. Assumptions can be dangerous of course.

Before I do however, I am curious to know what motives you attribute to those whom you believe were responsible for JFK's death.

In brief, if possible. Or as briefly as possible.

Thanks.
Reply
#12
Mark,

None of these things can be known with certainty, since that is not logically possible in the case of empirical knowledge. But some of them can be known beyond reasonable doubt, which means that no alternative theory or hypothesis is reasonable, given the available relevant evidence. I have been asked the question you raise about Israeli complicity several times before. I can only report that, based upon my research, while it may have had a grudge to bear against JFK, Israel does not appear to have played a role in the assassination. That's my take and you were asking me for my conclusion. Others have drawn different conclusions. That is mine.

The list of those involved appears to be substantial. The oil men feared he would cut the oil depletion allowance. Anti-Castro Cubans wanted revenge for the Bay of Pigs. The Joint Chiefs had concluded that he was part of the problem and not the solution to containing the expansion of international communism: he had not invaded Cuba (which they supported), he had signed an above ground test-ban treaty with the Soviet Union (which they opposed), and he was pulling our forces out of Vietnam (which they also opposed). He was threatening to shatter the CIA into a thousand pieces. Bobby was cracking down on the mob. He was going to reform or abolish the FED.

Others wanted more for themselves. Lyndon wanted to be president of all the people. J. Edgar wanted to stay on as Director. An excellent study about JFK's evolution from a traditional "cold warrior" to a statesman for peace may be found in James Douglass, JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE. Another interesting book about JFK's death is David Talbot, BROTHERS, where he adopts Bobby's point of view. I may have been more confrontational than appropriate with regard to a confrontational post. For my overview of the assassination, you might read my review of RECLAIMING HISTORY archived on assassinationscience.com and in assassinationresearch.com.

Jim

Mark Stapleton Wrote:
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Listen,

My research (often based upon that of others who have gone before me) has established (a) that there are at least fifteen indications of Secret Service complicity in setting him up for the hit, (b) that the CIA/military/mafia were involved in taking him out, © that the FBI was used to cover it up, (d) that J. Edgar and Lyndon were principals, and (e) with financing from wealthy Texas oil men. I can prove my allegations. You appear to be willing to infer from Ruby's ethnicity to Israeli control and to make other speculative inferences that I am unwilling to adopt. My only advantages in dealing with these issues are (i) that I have been working with the best qualified individuals to ever study the case, (ii) that we have reconstructed the case from the bottom up, and (iii) that I had the benefit of 35 years teaching logic, critical thinking, and scientific reasoning as background in evaluating arguments and evidence. There were more than sufficient parties who wanted to kill him without a stretch to Tel Aviv. You are welcome to your opinions. Show some respect for those of others.

Jim

Mr. Fetzer,

Regarding your terse little warning at the end: in case you are not aware, to disagree does not necessarily mean to disrespect. So far I have merely disagreed and I would appreciate your bearing that in mind.

I always blanch when a researcher says they can 'prove it' because it cannot be proven with certainty since most of the evidence has been destroyed, altered or stolen. I can't prove Zionist Israel was the main sponsor but I can argue Israel is the most likely of a range of possibilities, and that your quick dismissal of its likelihood does yourself and the research community a disservice. In saying that, I am assuming closure of this matter beyond a reasonable doubt is the ultimate goal of the research community. Assumptions can be dangerous of course.

Before I do however, I am curious to know what motives you attribute to those whom you believe were responsible for JFK's death.

In brief, if possible. Or as briefly as possible.

Thanks.
Reply
#13
Dr. Fetzer

I had occasion to go to your blog site minutes ago for David Mantik's Slide 5 showing the "White Patch" on the JFK lateral skull x-ray which a different forum poster noted as suspiciously showing the "wrong kind of doctoring".

http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010/04/...ull-x.html

My first exposure to the issue of alteration in Zapruder is in your collection of articles Assassination Science.

Disinformation is never helpful to fruitful research. The 1974 Prairie Fire strange dedication to Sirhan Sirhan by Bill Ayers is an example. Sirhan was not as advertised an angry protestor of Robert Kennedy's arms deals; Sirhan was a hypnoprogrammed distractor enabling the kill shots from behind (per Noguchi). Yet Ayers' is an homage to one used to murder the likely next president who would have ended the war.

You have cataloged the likeliest sponsors, accessories and benefactors. Jack Ruby's phone records show Mafia not Mossad.

The 6.5 mm artifact in the AP skull x-ray might just as well be a 1/4-inch hole punch of a suitably opaque material, for David Mantik has shown its radiodensitometry inconsistent with its alleged cause. A standard to metric conversion table shows the metric equivalent to be 6.35-6.5 mm, enabling the resourceful radiologist to have used common objects at hand.

The fifty year mark will show a critical accumulation of evidence of conspiracy, crossfire, cover-up: coup. Your sites, and this, are foundation stones.
Reply
#14
Bob Ringler Wrote:According to this link, yitzak rabin was in dallas just hours before jfk was assassinated.

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard...pic_page=2

And you're suggesting WHAT??? (Keep in mind that JFK JR. was investigating Rabin's assassination shortly before he was blown out of the sky. )
Dawn

If I have the wrong Rabin, apologies....too busy to look it up...
Reply
#15
[quote=James H. Fetzer]Listen,

My research (often based upon that of others who have gone before me) has established (a) that there are at least fifteen indications of Secret Service complicity in setting him up for the hit, (b) that the CIA/military/mafia were involved in taking him out, © that the FBI was used to cover it up, (d) that J. Edgar and Lyndon were principals, and (e) with financing from wealthy Texas oil men. I can prove my allegations. You appear to be willing to infer from Ruby's ethnicity to Israeli control and to make other speculative inferences that I am unwilling to adopt. My only advantages in dealing with these issues are (i) that I have been working with the best qualified individuals to ever study the case, (ii) that we have reconstructed the case from the bottom up, and (iii) that I had the benefit of 35 years teaching logic, critical thinking, and scientific reasoning as background in evaluating arguments and evidence. There were more than sufficient parties who wanted to kill him without a stretch to Tel Aviv. You are welcome to your opinions. Show some respect for those of others.

Jim
_________________________________________________________________

Well put Jim!!! I agree totally. In fairness to Mark I have never researched any Isreal angle and am far to busy to do so at the present, but in my now near forty seven year investigation of this case you are correct, imho. Of course there are names we do not know, the shadow government, and the wealthy ones we do know about....NWO, and the like....Round table, Bilderbergers etc....but the case is solved. Now we just have to find a way of uniting in a common goal of obtaining justice. Setting history straight. Returning to the Oswald girls their father's good name.

Dawn
Reply
#16
Here is an article published in George magazine in 1997 regarding Rabin:

http://www.jfkmontreal.com/jfk_jr_&_rabin.htm
Reply
#17
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Mark,

None of these things can be known with certainty, since that is not logically possible in the case of empirical knowledge. But some of them can be known beyond reasonable doubt, which means that no alternative theory or hypothesis is reasonable, given the available relevant evidence. I have been asked the question you raise about Israeli complicity several times before. I can only report that, based upon my research, while it may have had a grudge to bear against JFK, Israel does not appear to have played a role in the assassination. That's my take and you were asking me for my conclusion. Others have drawn different conclusions. That is mine.

The list of those involved appears to be substantial. The oil men feared he would cut the oil depletion allowance. Anti-Castro Cubans wanted revenge for the Bay of Pigs. The Joint Chiefs had concluded that he was part of the problem and not the solution to containing the expansion of international communism: he had not invaded Cuba (which they supported), he had signed an above ground test-ban treaty with the Soviet Union (which they opposed), and he was pulling our forces out of Vietnam (which they also opposed). He was threatening to shatter the CIA into a thousand pieces. Bobby was cracking down on the mob. He was going to reform or abolish the FED.

Others wanted more for themselves. Lyndon wanted to be president of all the people. J. Edgar wanted to stay on as Director. An excellent study about JFK's evolution from a traditional "cold warrior" to a statesman for peace may be found in James Douglass, JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE. Another interesting book about JFK's death is David Talbot, BROTHERS, where he adopts Bobby's point of view. I may have been more confrontational than appropriate with regard to a confrontational post. For my overview of the assassination, you might read my review of RECLAIMING HISTORY archived on assassinationscience.com and in assassinationresearch.com.

Jim

very nice summation...
Reply
#18
I just want to clear something up with the admins before responding to Mr. Fetzer's post.

Bob Ringler sent me a message claiming he had been banned from posting, although I see nothing on his member profile indicating this.

Is this true, and if so why?
Reply
#19
Mark,

Thanks for mentioning this. Bob has written to me, too. I am concerned
as well. My impression is that it has to do with a thread of Jack White.

Jim

Mark Stapleton Wrote:I just want to clear something up with the admins before responding to Mr. Fetzer's post.

Bob Ringler sent me a message claiming he had been banned from posting, although I see nothing on his member profile indicating this.

Is this true, and if so why?
Reply
#20
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Mark,



The list of those involved appears to be substantial. The oil men feared he would cut the oil depletion allowance. Anti-Castro Cubans wanted revenge for the Bay of Pigs. The Joint Chiefs had concluded that he was part of the problem and not the solution to containing the expansion of international communism: he had not invaded Cuba (which they supported), he had signed an above ground test-ban treaty with the Soviet Union (which they opposed), and he was pulling our forces out of Vietnam (which they also opposed). He was threatening to shatter the CIA into a thousand pieces. Bobby was cracking down on the mob. He was going to reform or abolish the FED.


James, thanks for your reply.

This list you present is an (incomplete) list of those who had motive to want JFK dead, rather than a list of 'those involved', although I believe some had involvement at varying levels.

In a murder investigation, motive is one of the big 3 conditions, alongside means and opportunity, which need to be satisfactorily addressed before a conviction can be obtained. So motive is critically important if one is to proceed, and all who had motive should be looked at thoroughly, if one is to conduct an honest and complete investigation.

This is why I can't understand why you would arbitrarily rule a line beneath those you have listed, and not include Zionist Israel given what we now know about their pervasive influence throughout the institutions governing the US.

Texas oil certainly feared removal of the depletion allowance which JFK announced in early 1963 (but could not get through Congress). They also hated his left of centre, peace loving initiatives which they saw as the antithesis of what a good old commie hating, ass-kicking President should be. They were willing helpers with lots of money and power but not the architects, as I see it. Also, why then did they fail to assassinate Jimmy Carter when the depreciation allowance was scrapped during his administration?

'The mob' by which you seem to infer the Italian mafia, were under pressure, but this had been the case with previous administrations. If their natural response was to assassinate Presidents who had double crossed them, why didn't the nationwide syndicate led by Lucky Luciano attempt to assassinate FDR when he unleashed the Seabury investigation on them after he shrewdly obtained the support of mob controlled Tammany Hall for his nomination in 1932 by promising not to do that very thing?

Ditto for anti-Castro Cubans. Angry miscreants with zero access to the levers of real power have no place in a conspiracy of this complexity, except as ground level soldiers, to be readily sacrificed when circumstances dictate.

Apologies, but I'll have to make this post a two parter, as I have to attend to other things right now, and I want to examine the issue of motive further, in particular that of Zionist Israel (but not make it too long). To be continued......

I believe the motive to assassinate JFK among the Israeli leadership in 1963 was a stronger one than that of any aggrieved groups in the US.

This because they viewed JFK as an existential threat to their survival.

David Ben-Gurion believed Israel's only chance of survival in a country surrounded by hostile enemies was possession of the ultimate deterrent. This is clear from reading the letters he exchanged with Kennedy from April to June of that year, when JFK was exerting immense pressure on Israel not to introduce nuclear weapons to the Middle East. BG's hysteria is evident from the near hysterical tone, his evoking the still fresh memory of the holocaust and his pleading that 'my people have a right to live'.

Kennedy's refusal to budge obviously caused BG to believe the President didn't care whether Israel survived or not, despite the fact he offered repeated guarantees towards Israel's security.

BG knew his history and he knew that Israel must protect itself, and not rely on others to come to its defence. In 1957, he commenced the Dimona project and to this day he is remembered as the man most responsible for Israel's nuclear capacity. It wasn't easy. Opacity was Israel's official policy--even now they have never confirmed their nuclear capability--and this basically meant operating in secret, especially in regard to the prying eyes of the IAEA.

After DeGaulle was elected in 1959 France officially withdrew their support, but a young Shimon Peres, with extensive contacts within the French Government, was able to broker a deal whereby some of the French companies contracted to oversee construction were able to continue for two more years.

In December 1960, the US Government finally discovered, with anger and annoyance, that Israel had the Dimona nuclear facility under construction. There are strong indications that James Angleton at the CIA was responsible for the suppression of intelligence. When Kennedy meets BG at the Waldorf Astoria in May 1960, he is assured its only for cheap energy. Why this would be necessary given Israel's small population is not discussed.

The next two years see JFK continue to place pressure on BG and two unsatisfactory 'visits' resulted. The plutonium reprocessing plant remained concealed by the hosts.

The Cuban missile crisis in October 1962 was a critical turning point for JFK. After such a close encounter with a nuclear war, he became a crusader against nuclear proliferation, signing the test ban treaty with the Soviets in August 1963 and issuing the little known NSAM231 in March 1963, entitled 'Middle Eastern Nuclear Capabilities':


http://fas.org/irp/offdocs/nsam-jfk/nsam231.gif


NSAM 231 was aimed squarely at Israel. In it JFK directed the State Department to develop plans to forestall any nuclear programs by Israel or the the UAR. Kennedy knew Egypt had a ballistic missile program but no nuclear weapons program at that time. Kennedy was turning up the heat on BG and he was feeling that heat.

Then on April 17 1963 Egypt, Syria and Iraq signed the Arab Federation Proclamation, calling for the liberation of Palestine. Ben Gurion's fears were fuelled to hysteria, evidenced by his written communications with Kennedy. He equated the liberation of Palestine with the destruction of Israel and pointed this out to Kennedy, who didn't buy it. Instead, JFK ramped up the anti-nuclear rhetoric another notch and he began to threaten Ben Gurion about the damage Israel's nuclear program would cause to US-Israel relations.

At this point I believe BG assessed JFK to be an existential threat to his country.

Kennedy's letter to BG on May 18 1963 was considered by BG's inner circle to be 'harsh' and 'brutal'. BG replied with his final letter to JFK on May 27 in which he refused JFK's requests for six monthly inspections. The reactor was very close to its scheduled startup time of late '63 and since the US played no part in its construction Israel would not accept 'a system of formal United States control at the Dimona reactor', BG said. Finding this unsatisfactory, JFK sent another letter, cabled to US Ambassador Walworth Barbour on June 15, but Ben Gurion resigned the following day without ever reading it.

The meeting in El Paso with JFK, Governor Connally and longtime Israel advocate LBJ, where it was decided JFK would visit Texas, took place on June 6, 1963.

JFK continued the pressure on BG's successor Levi Eshkol, but the visits were always postponed by Eshkol, usually citing domestic political pressures as the excuse.

JFK died on November 22. Thirteen days later Israel tells LBJ they are now willing to accept an inspection regime (on their terms) and on December 26, 1963 the reactor goes critical ie. is switched on.
Reply


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