Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[Charles Drago]

It was written in the biography Mark cited. Those around Ben-Gurion said he became so obsessed with his battle with Kennedy over nuclear weapons that he had a nervous breakdown and was forced out of office because of it. Remember Israel was creating false facilities at Dimona and bricking-over elevators at this time. Even David indirectly admits this.


It's amazing what some people will do to avoid that simple fact.


Your "agnosticism" is showing Charles.


Charles ignores the fact that David first asked us to provide documentation of this nervous breakdown. His most recent posts acknowledge the breakdown. So David has already conceded it. I am asking David to practice what he preaches and follow his own advice and document what caused the nervous breakdown he now admits?


I'd also like to remind Charles he was the person who said I was free to take an opinion that differed from the Deep Politics website majority.

There "you" go hallucinating again, "Albert."

"You" present as fact what is, in truth, mere supposition regarding the breakdown's cause. "You" rest "your" case on a "diagnosis" that is, in truth, comprised of nothing more than the undocumented observations not of mental health professionals, but only of laymen.

"You" started it, "Albert." The onus is on "you" to present more than uninformed opinion in this matter.

And I remind "you" again, "sir," that the issue at hand is not the reality of the breakdown, but rather its cause. David asked after the ability of the commentators you cite to diagnosis the causes of the breakdown. "You" have nothing that would indicate such an ability existed. So you change the subject. Or try to.

I need no reminding from the likes of "you" of what I write. Nowhere, "Albert," have I stated that "you" are not free to voice your opinions here.

"Albert," I've given up trying to speak sense to "you." From "your" very first posts here "you've" exhibited a mindset impenetrable by logic and reason. "Your" posts are almost always excruciatingly painful to endure. I find nothing of value in anything "you've" posted here.

"You" are a joke, "Albert." A very tired joke.

Feel free to huff and puff. Just know that, when "you" do, the only house "you" blow down is "your" own.

"Albert," "you" don't pass the laugh test.

[Albert Doyle]

[
I did NOT ask for documentation of the breakdown - you misstate my intentions and meaning in every post Albert... I asked for documentation of the JFK/BG hatred that supposedly leads to his involvement in planning the assassination...

Ah, but you did, and Mark cited the biography by Michael Bar-Zohan in response:

your conclusions, even in your last post, are not supportable by any corroborated evidence....

PLEASE CITE SOURCES...


" Ben-Gurion was driven to a nervous breakdown by his negotiations with Kennedy. He resigned office because of it, yet you are trying to suggest this was a product of Hersh's imagination. As is typical of you David, it seems to me like you are trying to hide too much behind that obvious Hersh-association device. You can't defeat this with source defamation. It is obviously well beyond just Hersh alone. Mark has already cited the books referencing this. "



No Albert. Mark hasn't... if he has... link to the post and stop shying away from the task at hand.

[Mark Stapleton]

You were right Albert. This has turned into a pissing contest of sorts. In any case, the issue of BG's resignation/mental state and whether this is attributable to Kennedy's pressure seems to have become a major bone of contention. I don't like quoting long slabs of text from books but this excerpt from Cohen (pp.135-136) covers it pretty well I think:


Did Kennedy's pressure play a role in Ben-Gurion's resignation? Ben-Gurion never provided an explanation for his decision, except in reference to "personal reasons". To his cabinet colleagues Ben-Gurion said that he "must" resign and that "no state problem or event caused it".

Ben-Gurion's biographer suggested that there was no one specific political reason, but that it was his general mental state--manifested by a series of panicky, even paranoid, actions--of the previous ten weeks that led the seventy six year old leader to resign. Bar-Zohar speculates that domestic politics, not foreign policy, influenced his decision. Yitzhak Navon, Ben-Gurion's close aide, also believes that the reason for the resignation might have been personal rather than political, and suggests that concerns over his mental deterioration, particularly his loss of memory, might have played a role. Navon does not think that Kennedy's pressure on Dimona caused Ben-Gurion to resign.

Others, however, including ministers in Ben-Gurion's cabinet (Pinhas Sapir, for example), believed that Ben-Gurion's decision was, in part, connected to Kennedy's pressure on Dimona. Israel Galili, the leader of Achdut Ha'Avodah, was convinced that Ben-Gurion's sense of failure and frustration in dealings with Kennedy on the matter of Dimona was among the reasons that led to his resignation. This is also the view of Yuval Ne'eman who, in 1963, was the director of the Soreq Nuclear Research Centre and was involved in the consultations involving the replies to Kennedy's demands. Ambassador Barbour also hints that Kennedy's letters and Ben-Gurion's resignation might have been linked. In his telegram on Ben-Gurion's resignation, he noted: "while probably not a major cause of dissension, this issue [Dimona] was itself not without controversy when Ben-Gurion presented it to his colleagues before dispatching his letter of May 27."

Whatever the reasons for his resignation, Ben-Gurion's public and private commitments in his last three years in office, particularly the one in his May 27 letter to Kennedy, undermined his long term objective: to shield the completion of Dimona's infrastructure from international pressure. DeGaulle's reversal on the issue of French aid to Israel and Kennedy's opposition to nuclear weapons proliferation may have persuaded Ben-Gurion that Israel would find it difficult to complete the project, especially in the face of American pressure. Ben-Gurion thus concluded that he could not tell the truth about Dimona to American leaders, not even in private."


So the issue of whether BG's mental deterioration and subsequent resignation is attributable to Kennedy's pressure on Dimona is at the very least, controversial. Personally I'm sure it was the catalyst, but that's just my opinion. To BG, giving up Dimona was unthinkable. A major confrontation with the US, which JFK alluded to in his letters, was also unthinkable. So a third option was sought--and found. With Israel's glove puppet in the White House after November 22, it was full steam ahead. Of course, that's just my opinion.

[Greg Burnham]

We're so sorry, Uncle "Albert"
But we haven't done a bloody thing all day.
We're so sorry, Uncle "Albert"
But the kettle's on the boil
And we're so eas'ly called away...

[Mark Stapleton]

"Albert," I've given up trying to speak sense to "you." From "your" very first posts here "you've" exhibited a mindset impenetrable by logic and reason. "Your" posts are almost always excruciatingly painful to endure. I find nothing of value in anything "you've" posted here.

"You" are a joke, "Albert." A very tired joke.

Charles, why do you keep referring to Albert as "you"?

Because he used a different font in one of his posts?

You seem more overheated than anyone at the moment. I hope a lynch mob mentality doesn't result in closure of this thread. I still want to debate some of David's heroic assertions which can be proven wrong.

[Mark Stapleton]

We're so sorry, Uncle "Albert"
But we haven't done a bloody thing all day.
We're so sorry, Uncle "Albert"
But the kettle's on the boil
And we're so eas'ly called away...

What a tremendous contribution.

[Greg Burnham]

Mark,

Your signature says:

===============

"...firmness in the right (?) is indispensible today for peace..."

Excerpt from the President's televised report on the Gulf of Tonkin incident
delivered on August 4, 1964 by Lyndon Johnson--electoral fraudster, liar, coward,
murderer, and Zionism's greatest American friend and facilitator. [emphasis added]

===============

I find that convoluted over-reaching description to be cleverly contrived...nothing more. Keep in mind:

LBJ is not my "favorite" guy (by any stretch) However:

LBJ was NOT the "mastermind" of the JFK assassination

LBJ was not Zionism's greatest American friend and facilitator either

Question: Do you have a dog in this fight? If so what is it specifically--if you can say and are so inclined to respond.

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark,

Your signature says:

===============

"...firmness in the right (?) is indispensible today for peace..."

Excerpt from the President's televised report on the Gulf of Tonkin incident
delivered on August 4, 1964 by Lyndon Johnson--electoral fraudster, liar, coward,
murderer, and Zionism's greatest American friend and facilitator. [emphasis added]

===============

I find that convoluted over-reaching description to be cleverly contrived...nothing more. Keep in mind:

LBJ is not my "favorite" guy (by any stretch) However:

LBJ was NOT the "mastermind" of the JFK assassination

LBJ was not Zionism's greatest American friend and facilitator either

Question: Do you have a dog in this fight? If so what is it specifically--if you can say and are so inclined to respond.

To a reader, my signature might seem harsh on LBJ. Not to me though. I hate LBJ. That's my dog in the fight.

btw, the sig doesn't claim LBJ masterminded the assassination and I have never claimed this. Lyndon Johnson was no mastermind. He was however, implicated in several murders during his career, in addition to his complicity in JFK's death.

Whether he was Zionism's greatest friend and facilitator is a matter of opinion isn't it. Do you have a list of others who might lay claim to that dubious distinction? We could debate their respective merits on a different thread.

I'll take your description of it as a compliment. However, analysis of members signatures might be best served by having its own thread.

[David Josephs]

"Whether he was Zionism's greatest friend and facilitator is a matter of opinion isn't it."

So we finally get to the heart of the matter.. a matter of opinion.

Thank you for posting that excerpt Mark... yet

Mark Stapleton

You were right Albert. This has turned into a pissing contest of sorts. In any case, the issue of BG's resignation/mental state and whether this is attributable to Kennedy's pressure seems to have become a major bone of contention. I don't like quoting long slabs of text from books but this excerpt from Cohen (pp.135-136) covers it pretty well I think:

the word "breakdown" does NOT appear once in this LONG SLAB while "resignation" appears 6 times...

At what point did EVIDENCE of a NERVOUS BREAKDOWN, as Albert has called it, become evidence of the concerns weighing heavy on his mind when he resigned?? For that is all there is in this QUOTE Mark... When WAS this breakdown? Was there actually a "breakdown" in the clinical sense?

Albert has a tizzy fit jumping down MY throat about YOU offering the proof of the HATRED between the men leading to his BREAKDOWN which in turn does NOT mean BG was a facilitator of the assassination (remember, Albert's words which he refuses to acknowledge after writing them even after specifically asked three times now...)

Anyway, Mark.... his HATRED for JFK over Dimona has now gone from the causal reason for the assassination, to: "at least controversial" quite a fall...

So the issue of whether BG's mental deterioration and subsequent resignation is attributable to Kennedy's pressure on Dimona is at the very least, controversial. Personally I'm sure it was the catalyst, but that's just my opinion.

and the first use of "breakdown in this thread... Albert...

I would even dare suggest that Angleton played this breakdown with Ben Gurion to enlist endorsement through this already-existing Mediterranean underground/Swiss bank cabal. If indeed Mossad had given the green light to the assassination, or perhaps it would be better put 'cooperation', what you would see is an energizing of their pro-zionist assets in the American underground. And low and behold you see a sudden indication of "jews" suddenly becoming "new backers" in an American CIA effort that was dovetailed with Dallas.
....
Ben-Gurion was driven to a nervous breakdown by his negotiations with Kennedy. He resigned office because of it, yet you are trying to suggest this was a product of Hersh's imagination. As is typical of you David, it seems to me like you are trying to hide too much behind that obvious Hersh-association device. You can't defeat this with source defamation. It is obviously well beyond just Hersh alone. Mark has already cited the books referencing this

So here we are full circle... Mark, Albert's source and "go to guy" has slightly reworded his support and when reposting the evidence shows how SHORT it is of Albert's and Piper's conclusion about BG, Israel and the assassination. Much like Armstrong... not every page is filled with verifiable fact... but the thoughts provoked are still very important and MUST play a role in understanding the time period. I will most definitely explore Permindex even more than I have, as well as Bloomfield and Montreal...

I've been aware of the Montreal connection for some time... Oswald is claimed to have been up there on a march of sorts if I remember correctly... http://somesecretsforyou.blogspot.com/20...chive.html yet more of the Banking, Mafia connection thru Chicago was what I was thinking.

Thanks again Mark for ultimately being gracious...

DJ

[Charles Drago]

"Albert," I've given up trying to speak sense to "you." From "your" very first posts here "you've" exhibited a mindset impenetrable by logic and reason. "Your" posts are almost always excruciatingly painful to endure. I find nothing of value in anything "you've" posted here.

"You" are a joke, "Albert." A very tired joke.

Charles, why do you keep referring to Albert as "you"?

Because he used a different font in one of his posts?

You seem more overheated than anyone at the moment. I hope a lynch mob mentality doesn't result in closure of this thread. I still want to debate some of David's heroic assertions which can be proven wrong.

I use quotation marks/inverted commas around "Albert" and the pronouns referring to "him" for the same reason that I use them when referencing the "Colby" entity -- among others -- at the EF Swamp and elsewhere.

I could be wrong, but based on wide, difficult to explain variances in style, grammar, punctuation, and vocabulary, I have proffered indications that two or more individuals are posting on this thread under the identity "Albert Doyle." The "different font" business is icing on the cake. Please try to read more carefully; you're starting to sound like "Albert."

"Heated?" Hardly. Just tired of "Albert" and "his" impenetrable ignorance. It's like trying to communicate with a legume.

We're still waiting for "Albert" to assure us, on his honor, that "he" alone posts under "his" name.