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Albert Doyle Wrote:Phil Dragoo Wrote:Ruby the Chicago transplant, the go-to guy for drugs in Dallas, the do-it-yourself bouncer with fifteen beatings and the occasional customer thrown down the stairs, the calls cagily made to goodfellas, who admitted his lawyer came up with the "did it for Jackie" schtick, who had his mind drycleaned by Joly West and DeLoach's cousin, was really, really just trying to show the world that Jews have guts.
So if I'm reading this right, we've established that the did it for Jackie was just a legal ruse. So we're right back to why Ruby mentioned his jewishness? It was his words not mine. (I'm not trying to endorse any Stormfront approach. I'm just making a point)
If we analyze Ruby he was assassination figure known to try to speak the truth about what really happened.
Now THAT'S Albert Doyle!
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David Josephs Wrote:Show us the budget for aid to israel as approved for 1964.... from 1963.
Show us that the incoming administration has no affect on this budget... NOTHING was changed, no decisions were changed...
Seems to me the escalation of war in Vietnam MAY have caused the 64 budget to be amended a bit... ya think?
He already did. Mark showed you that the funding budget for '64 was decided in October 1963 when the 1964 fiscal year was planned. The very dip you cite in funding falls right in line with Kennedy's attempts to disempower Israeli militarization as shown in both Piper and The Unspeakable. It's YOU who needs to do the showing here and show us how what you wrote makes any attempt to honestly answer this?
You then follow with Chomsky's Kennedy VietNam escalation. Brilliant David!
David Josephs Wrote:" Military aid to Israel increases by a factor of five during LBJ's tenure. "
Excellent point Mark... let's take the FIRST POTUS to offer ANYTHING MILITARILY to Israel and compare it to the buildup to the 6 day war....
You really got me there...
There's no comparison between JFK's approach towards Israel and LBJ's. Nor is there any denial that the origin point was Kennedy's assassination. In spite of this we have David offering us the full Chomsky banquet accompanied by taunts. Meanwhile there's no resistance from those who otherwise attack this Chomsky-type position on a regular basis. Here we have David offering Kennedy as the escalator and Johnson as the de-funder during the Liberty era, not only unopposed, but with the praises of some.
David Josephs Wrote:Let's forget the actual correspondance between LBJ and Eshkol, that I posted and you dismissed, which stated exactly the same position about the middle east and peace, as JFK... offensive/nuclear weapons are a threat to the balance of power in the middle east...
David, why hold back? You should continue and show us some LBJ quotes on his seriousness in seeking the truth behind the assassination with the Warren Commission. Now you're doing Caro! Trust LBJ! There you have it! David sourcing LBJ unquestioned while admonishing us on our sources. There you have David, right in broad daylight, having the unmitigated chutzpah to suggest LBJ pursued a similar policy as JFK. And none of the anti-Chomsky protesters utter a word.
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Thank you Albert and Mark for making your case....
I'm confident anyone reading thru the thread will get a fair dose of both sides of the debate...
Cheers
DJ
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David Josephs Wrote:Thank you Albert and Mark for making your case....
I'm confident anyone reading thru the thread will get a fair dose of both sides of the debate...
Cheers
DJ
Bravo, David.
Bye bye, threesome.
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If we analyze Ruby he was assassination figure known to try to speak the truth about what really happened.
From Tonto's Tautology
My Big Fat Jewish Wedding
Inside the lump, we find Albert's twin
Mark Stapleton
Unregistered
David Josephs Wrote:Mark... this is simple...
Show us the budget for aid to israel as approved for 1964.... from 1963.
Show us that the incoming administration has no affect on this budget... NOTHING was changed, no decisions were changed...
You already posted the aid budget for FY 1964. It blew up in your face, remember?
Kennedy allocated no military aid to Israel for FY 1964. The Hawk defensive missiles were all he was prepared to arm Israel with. LBJ changed all that in the years that followed. No wonder former Undersecretary of State George Ball wrote in his book The Passionate Attachment: "The Israelis were proved right in their assumption that Johnson would be more friendly than Kennedy".
Mark Stapleton
Unregistered
David Josephs Wrote:Let's forget the actual correspondance between LBJ and Eshkol, that I posted and you dismissed, which stated exactly the same position about the middle east and peace, as JFK... offensive/nuclear weapons are a threat to the balance of power in the middle east...
Laughable rubbish. There's no comparison between the two. Johnson's letters contained none of the threatening tone seen in the Kennedy letters.
The only time the Johnson Administration ever appeared close to a confrontation with Israel was in 1968, when they tried to persuade Israel to sign the NPT. Chapter 16 of Cohen analyses this in detail. The main protagonist for the Administration was Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs Paul Warnke.
Warnke wanted to use the proposed sale of Phantom F4 Jets to Israel as a bargaining chip to persuade Israel to sign the NPT. Warnke and Dean Rusk held several meetings with Israeli Ambassador Rabin and IAF Commander Mordechai Hod, in an attempt to get them to sign a Memorandum of Understanding linking the nuclear issue to the sale of the Phantom F4's. Warnke explained his keen desire to force Israel to sign the NPT:
It's not just 50 Phantoms, but 50 Phantoms plus 100 Skyhawks plus the great variety of other equipment that Israel is requesting that makes the policy we are entering upon a distinct change from our prior policy. This qualitative change would create a different set of circumstances concerning our supply relationship with Israel...involving us even more intimately with Israel's security situation and involving more directly the security of the United States.
However, after the last of these meetings, in which Rabin described in his memoirs how he "sat stupefied, feeling the blood rising to my face", Israeli representatives petitioned the WH to intervene. Apparently Rabin contacted Abe Feinberg, a friend and strong supporter of the President, and asked him to get Johnson to end the stalemate. Within days Warnke was instructed by Clifford to cancel the MOU at the request of the WH. Warnke was told that President Johnson wished to finalize the Phantom deal swiftly and without conditions (Cohen p. 315).
Once again, LBJ bowed to Israel.
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Mark Stapleton Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Let's forget the actual correspondance between LBJ and Eshkol, that I posted and you dismissed, which stated exactly the same position about the middle east and peace, as JFK... offensive/nuclear weapons are a threat to the balance of power in the middle east...
Laughable rubbish. There's no comparison between the two. Johnson's letters contained none of the threatening tone seen in the Kennedy letters.
The only time the Johnson Administration ever appeared close to a confrontation with Israel was in 1968, when they tried to persuade Israel to sign the NPT. Chapter 16 of Cohen analyses this in detail. The main protagonist for the Administration was Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs Paul Warnke.
Warnke wanted to use the proposed sale of Phantom F4 Jets to Israel as a bargaining chip to persuade Israel to sign the NPT. Warnke and Dean Rusk held several meetings with Israeli Ambassador Rabin and IAF Commander Mordechai Hod, in an attempt to get them to sign a Memorandum of Understanding linking the nuclear issue to the sale of the Phantom F4's. Warnke explained his keen desire to force Israel to sign the NPT:
It's not just 50 Phantoms, but 50 Phantoms plus 100 Skyhawks plus the great variety of other equipment that Israel is requesting that makes the policy we are entering upon a distinct change from our prior policy. This qualitative change would create a different set of circumstances concerning our supply relationship with Israel...involving us even more intimately with Israel's security situation and involving more directly the security of the United States.
However, after the last of these meetings, in which Rabin described in his memoirs how he "sat stupefied, feeling the blood rising to my face", Israeli representatives petitioned the WH to intervene. Apparently Rabin contacted Abe Feinberg, a friend and strong supporter of the President, and asked him to get Johnson to end the stalemate. Within days Warnke was instructed by Clifford to cancel the MOU at the request of the WH. Warnke was told that President Johnson wished to finalize the Phantom deal swiftly and without conditions (Cohen p. 315).
Once again, LBJ bowed to Israel.
Are we really to believe that LBJ was bullied by "the Heebs" (a "term of endearment" that he himself used)? The man was the ultimate epitome of TEXAS to have ever lived, both in his own mind and in the minds of most everyone who had ever crossed him. He was the master of "bullying" tactics. He bullied the Chief Justice of the goddamned Supreme Court into heading up his Blue Ribbon Commission! He strong-armed Senator Richard Russell into serving on the same commission. The list of persons of high stature that LBJ overpowered throughout his career is long and distinguished. He took a backseat to JFK, by virtue of position, but was not bullied even by the office of the President of the United States. RFK may have tried to bully him, but LBJ was immune to such things--as he was much too politically savvy...and RFK even knew it.
LBJ "bowed" to no one that was publically known--ever--in his political career, with the possible exception of Averell Harriman. To suggest that the Texan, LBJ, cowtowed to "Israel" is perhaps among the shallowest of intellectual offerings I've read on this forum to date. People of the LBJ mindset don't "bow" to nations. They submit to those rare individuals who they perceive to be more in charge than they are.
Mark, your model of these dynamics lacks foundation and appears based in bigotry.
GO_SECURE
monk
"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."
James Hepburn -- Farewell America (1968)
Mark Stapleton
Unregistered
Greg Burnham Wrote:The man was the ultimate epitome of TEXAS to have ever lived, both in his own mind and in the minds of most everyone who had ever crossed him. He was the master of "bullying" tactics. He bullied the Chief Justice of the goddamned Supreme Court into heading up his Blue Ribbon Commission! He strong-armed Senator Richard Russell into serving on the same commission. The list of persons of high stature that LBJ overpowered throughout his career is long and distinguished. He took a backseat to JFK, by virtue of position, but was not bullied even by the office of the President of the United States. RFK may have tried to bully him, but LBJ was immune to such things--as he was much too politically savvy...and RFK even knew it.
Yes, LBJ was a psychopath. We all know about his legendary bullying. This makes him a coward too.
Mark Stapleton
Unregistered
Greg Burnham Wrote:LBJ "bowed" to no one that was publically known--ever--in his political career, with the possible exception of Averell Harriman.
That was the way he was portrayed in the media. Do you believe the media is honest?
He bowed to Israel.
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