I believe that Seamus is mistaken. There have been comparisons to the REM song, but there was no plagiarism as far as I can tell.
In music publishing one can copyright the lyrics (words) and/or the music (melody). One can sometimes copyright performance, but
with less force than the words and music.
The courts have held that: infringement may occur where the "whole meritorious part of the song" is incorporated into another song,
without any substantial alteration. Or that the song in question or a part thereof is substantially similar to a previously copyrighted song
and used or incorporated without permission from the copyright holder.
In the case of "We Didn't Start the Fire" there is absolutely nothing lyrically identical to the REM song. There are also no "melodic
passages or phrases" that are identical to the REM song.
However, both songs have a feel similar to Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues. Yet, neither song is substantially similar to
it melodically and none of the lyrics crossover either. I would limit that similarity to "feel" and/or "style" neither of which are elements
of copyright law by themselves.
Perhaps Seamus can direct us to evidence of the settlement between the parties involved.
GO_SECURE
monk
"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."
Greg is correct, I googled this and came up with zero. But it gave me a chance to listen to both songs on youtube over lunch.
So I think Seamus is confusing something he read, wishful thinking on Stipe's part, perhaps.
(With apologies to CD who hates this kind of music, Jazz purist that he is :moon2
Yeah Dawn and Greg I do think Stipe is a bit of a pretentious wanker myself. Though I find some of his music okay and I mean okay like 'End of the World' is a goody. But I'm a big time Beatles fan! What an asshole saying that I never knew?
As for the out of court settlement, bang on GB. I rechecked my sources, I couldn't find shite. My apologies, but I've found a method to my madness. I had a look in some old music mags and I found out my source was an old letter I'd seen with some joker criticising Joel over REM. But, it gets better lol, I can also recall a conversation with a music critic about Joel and an REM fan. They were adamant Joel had ripped off Stipe/settled out of court.
But memories and emotions don't make for facts.
Nonetheless, it make for an interesting little mini search.
Cresfallen, I looked around again and found out there was a lot of bad shit going on for Joel during the period between 'Fire' and 'River of Dreams'. As a fan GB you may enlighten us more on what happened, it sounds bloody ugly his manager and his wife. Maybe, this was where rumours were being spread by his manager and his ex's PR? She didnt leave him till 94, but LA's a jungle lol! Funny thing is no one commented to me about Joel and Rem when Joel's song came out in 89. I heard this stuff in what 93 or 92 after his album. I do recall BJ got in shit for one album or song in the mid to late 80's or 90's (Hey all artists do at one time or another look up poor old George H and "My Sweet Lord'). But again this may have been more bullshit dredged up by his old management.
In my defence I wasn't absolute with the court settlement (lame defence). But this little detour proved very enlightening how word of mouth pre-internet got around.
I still can't get over Michael Stipes comments though what a tosser!
"In the Kennedy assassination we must be careful of running off into the ether of our own imaginations." Carl Ogelsby circa 1992
Seamus Coogan Wrote:Yeah Dawn and Greg I do think Stipe is a bit of a pretentious wanker myself. Though I find some of his music okay and I mean okay like 'End of the World' is a goody. But I'm a big time Beatles fan! What an asshole saying that I never knew?
As for the out of court settlement, bang on GB. I rechecked my sources, I couldn't find shite. My apologies, but I've found a method to my madness. I had a look in some old music mags and I found out my source was an old letter I'd seen with some joker criticising Joel over REM. But, it gets better lol, I can also recall a conversation with a music critic about Joel and an REM fan. They were adamant Joel had ripped off Stipe/settled out of court.
But memories and emotions don't make for facts.
Nonetheless, it make for an interesting little mini search.
Cresfallen, I looked around again and found out there was a lot of bad shit going on for Joel during the period between 'Fire' and 'River of Dreams'. As a fan GB you may enlighten us more on what happened, it sounds bloody ugly his manager and his wife. Maybe, this was where rumours were being spread by his manager and his ex's PR? She didnt leave him till 94, but LA's a jungle lol! Funny thing is no one commented to me about Joel and Rem when Joel's song came out in 89. I heard this stuff in what 93 or 92 after his album. I do recall BJ got in shit for one album or song in the mid to late 80's or 90's (Hey all artists do at one time or another look up poor old George H and "My Sweet Lord'). But again this may have been more bullshit dredged up by his old management.
In my defence I wasn't absolute with the court settlement (lame defence). But this little detour proved very enlightening how word of mouth pre-internet got around.
I still can't get over Michael Stipes comments though what a tosser!
No worries, Mate. Worst case scenario: it was an innocuous overstatement of fact. I don't know what happened with Stipes (if anything) in relation to WDSTF, Seamus, but I do know it wasn't plagiarism.
GO_SECURE
monk
"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."
Wow. I've had some problems with my computer speakers and only got them fixed last night. So I just listened to your video then Greg. Who'd have thought? Billy Joel? I had always written him off as just another commercial muso with his 'Uptown Girl' and 'Piano Man'. All very good and competent and all but just entertainment and fairly superficial. And a Beatles fan too? Even better. I can't see any connection between his song and the REM song ITEOTWAWKI. REM is dreaming if they think BJ used it as the basis of his song. Funnily enough I was reading some of Patty Boyd's book last night and the part I was reading was about how she watched George Harrison composing a good part of "My Sweet Lord" at their kitchen table and other parts he did in the studio with Billy Preston. If he did any thing it was unconscious. I know he lost the case but he ended up owning the rights to 'He's So Fine' due to the duplicity of his lawyer,Klein, when he secretly bought the rights to 'He's so Fine' for himself. And nice one Seamus for the Living Colour song!
I just find it hard to understand how people could have fallen for all that Duck and Cover shit and actually believe the Russkies were going to nuke them? Like a mass hysteria. We had quite a few Canadians and Americans come here to live and be as far away from that madness as possible. Too bad about the English dropping their bombs all over the South Australian desert and the French dropping all theirs off New Zealand's coast. Unfortunately idiots are everywhere. Mostly in the military or attracted to it.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
Magda Hassan Wrote:Wow. I've had some problems with my computer speakers and only got them fixed last night. So I just listened to your video then Greg. Who'd have thought? Billy Joel? I had always written him off as just another commercial muso with his 'Uptown Girl' and 'Piano Man'. All very good and competent and all but just entertainment and fairly superficial. And a Beatles fan too? Even better. I can't see any connection between his song and the REM song ITEOTWAWKI. REM is dreaming if they think BJ used it as the basis of his song. Funnily enough I was reading some of Patty Boyd's book last night and the part I was reading was about how she watched George Harrison composing a good part of "My Sweet Lord" at their kitchen table and other parts he did in the studio with Billy Preston. If he did any thing it was unconscious. I know he lost the case but he ended up owning the rights to 'He's So Fine' due to the duplicity of his lawyer,Klein, when he secretly bought the rights to 'He's so Fine' for himself. And nice one Seamus for the Living Colour song!
I just find it hard to understand how people could have fallen for all that Duck and Cover shit and actually believe the Russkies were going to nuke them? Like a mass hysteria. We had quite a few Canadians and Americans come here to live and be as far away from that madness as possible. Too bad about the English dropping their bombs all over the South Australian desert and the French dropping all theirs off New Zealand's coast. Unfortunately idiots are everywhere. Mostly in the military or attracted to it.
Magda: I never believed it either, even as a child and hearing it on the news and hearing people talk about it. I never believed it would happen. And I never understood people who were scared.
I also had no clue George OWNED the rights to He's so Fine. How the hell can you lose a lawsuit over something you own, or did he buy the rights after word?
Is Patty's book any good? All I know is first she was married to George, in the early days then Eric Clapton fell in love with her- his best friend's wife! and wrote WonderFul Tonight for her, and they married.
And of course divorced. Then he was with the woman with whom he had the little boy who died at age four, falling out the window of a NY highrise, and for whom the beautifuyl Tears In Heaven is written for. I can never hear Clapton sing that without crying.
Yeah, he got the rights to 'He's so Fine' after the court case because his lawyer tried to screw him and got caught and he sort of had to sell it to George. His lawyer who had been working with him on the case went to the others and gave them all this information about their case and when Bright, the company who owned the song, went bust he bought the rights to the song. I think he was also banking on George losing the rights to 'My Sweet Lord' and getting that as well. As this was a big no no legally and ethically he was obliged to sell it to George for what he had paid, something around $500,000. So he made no money on it and just covered costs. So, George has the rights to both now. Took years in court though. I think it wasn't till the 1990's that it was sorted fully. I love 'My Sweet Lord' and I am sure many people over the years have found comfort in it.
Yeah, Patty is something special. Lucky men. I like Clapton's music but lost a bit of respect for him when I recently found he was a racist. Surprising for a blues man.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.â€
Buckminster Fuller
I have to admit that I never really did like Billy Joel's music that much.But,then I found out he is a classic Buick enthusiast like myself.So,Billy Joel is KOOL with me.......
Billy's restored 1949 Buick Super convertible.
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.â€
Buckminster Fuller
