Lovelady in front of TSBD

[Drew Phipps]

It'll have to wait till tomorrow.

[Albert Doyle]

A really good photo analyst would be able to determine if Prayer Man was within Oswald's height range in relation to Frazier's height in the blow up of the portal film frame. There's a geometric comparison there that could be done.

I don't think it's Oswald because there's too many people who would have seen him.

[Bob Mady]

My real point about Amos Euins and the bald spot is, I've always wondered how you can see a bald spot, on a guy facing you, standing in relative shadow behind a half open window, from 6 floors down? I'm thinking Amos Euins may have acquired at least part of his description of the shooter, from viewing old Lovelady there on the street.

EUINS was in ninth grade, do you really believe his testimony is reliable?
400 people looked to the GN to where the shots came from, EUINS had no idea and looked up, he may have seen the arms of NORMAN or WILLIAMS in the window, afterwards an imagination turned this into a rifle.

There was no shots fired from the TSBD.

The three men located 10 feet away disagree on shots being fired from the TSBD. NOT one of the three men claimed shots came from the SN or the sixth floor.
NORMAN claimed to hear huls hit the floor and the bolt on the rifle, but said nothing about a three 150 decibel sounds, supposedly 10 feet from his head.
They all agree that there were no sounds of any movement coming from the sixth floor.

Women located in a window 20 feet away indicated the shots came from the GN and one the court house.

To continue to speculate about shots coming from the sixth floor is folly.

[Scott Kaiser]

My real point about Amos Euins and the bald spot is, I've always wondered how you can see a bald spot, on a guy facing you, standing in relative shadow behind a half open window, from 6 floors down? I'm thinking Amos Euins may have acquired at least part of his description of the shooter, from viewing old Lovelady there on the street.

EUINS was in ninth grade, do you really believe his testimony is reliable?
400 people looked to the GN to where the shots came from, EUINS had no idea and looked up, he may have seen the arms of NORMAN or WILLIAMS in the window, afterwards an imagination turned this into a rifle.

There was no shots fired from the TSBD.

The three men located 10 feet away disagree on shots being fired from the TSBD. NOT one of the three men claimed shots came from the SN or the sixth floor.
NORMAN claimed to hear huls hit the floor and the bolt on the rifle, but said nothing about a three 150 decibel sounds, supposedly 10 feet from his head.
They all agree that there were no sounds of any movement coming from the sixth floor.

Women located in a window 20 feet away indicated the shots came from the GN and one the court house.

To continue to speculate about shots coming from the sixth floor is folly.

EUINS was in ninth grade, do you really believe his testimony is reliable?

I'm not that sharp on the assassination as many if not all of you are, and I surly don't know half as much as everyone here, but am I to believe that what you're saying is that everyone or anyone who was in the ninth grade or younger should not be taken seriously because they are not credible?

I myself have a problem with that, Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise.

I myself would rather use my better understanding then to have someone influence what I should believe.

[Bob Mady]

My real point about Amos Euins and the bald spot is, I've always wondered how you can see a bald spot, on a guy facing you, standing in relative shadow behind a half open window, from 6 floors down? I'm thinking Amos Euins may have acquired at least part of his description of the shooter, from viewing old Lovelady there on the street.

EUINS was in ninth grade, do you really believe his testimony is reliable?
400 people looked to the GN to where the shots came from, EUINS had no idea and looked up, he may have seen the arms of NORMAN or WILLIAMS in the window, afterwards an imagination turned this into a rifle.

There was no shots fired from the TSBD.

The three men located 10 feet away disagree on shots being fired from the TSBD. NOT one of the three men claimed shots came from the SN or the sixth floor.
NORMAN claimed to hear huls hit the floor and the bolt on the rifle, but said nothing about a three 150 decibel sounds, supposedly 10 feet from his head.
They all agree that there were no sounds of any movement coming from the sixth floor.

Women located in a window 20 feet away indicated the shots came from the GN and one the court house.

To continue to speculate about shots coming from the sixth floor is folly.

EUINS was in ninth grade, do you really believe his testimony is reliable?

I'm not that sharp on the assassination as many if not all of you are, and I surly don't know half as much as everyone here, but am I to believe that what you're saying is that everyone or anyone who was in the ninth grade or younger should not be taken seriously because they are not credible?

I myself have a problem with that, Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise.

I myself would rather use my better understanding then to have someone influence what I should believe.

Scott, it was not only that EUINS was in ninth grade, it was all of the evidence in context, the WC took advantage of a confused teenager to press its agenda.

[Drew Phipps]

According to William Manchester in "Death of a President" (1967), Inspector Herbert Sawyer seals off the front entrance of the TSBD at precisely 12:37 PM. Lovelady's account of his whereabout is incorrect.

[Bob Prudhomme]

According to William Manchester in "Death of a President" (1967), Inspector Herbert Sawyer seals off the front entrance of the TSBD at precisely 12:37 PM. Lovelady's account of his whereabout is incorrect.

Thanks for that, Drew. This really presents a problem, now.

According to the WC testimony of both Shelley and Lovelady, they remained on the steps of the TSBD 3-4 minutes following the last shot, and did not leave those steps until Gloria Calvary had returned to the steps with news of the shooting. This cannot be a mistaken concept of elapsed time on their parts, as Ms. Calvary was standing close to the Stemmons Freeway sign at the time of the shooting, and there are photos of her loitering close by the sign long after the assassination.

So, what are we to make of Lovelady in these films? Can he wait 3-4 minutes on the steps, spend another 5 minutes wandering down to the rail yard, observing police going through rail cars, walk to the rear entrance of the TSBD, enter the building and still make it out the front door for a cigarette before Sawyer seals the building off at 12:37?

[David Josephs]

According to William Manchester in "Death of a President" (1967), Inspector Herbert Sawyer seals off the front entrance of the TSBD at precisely 12:37 PM. Lovelady's account of his whereabout is incorrect.

Herbert Sawyer... LOL ::facepalm::

this is the man who takes two men with him up the elevator... runs into a man coming down on this elevator who they don't bother to question. Additionally Belin does not bother asking Sawyer who "this man" was leaving the crime scene within 5 minutes of the shooting. We also know that for quite some time after 12:37 people were coming in and out of the front and back without being checked or stopped... to believe that Sawyer's 12:37 is the cut-off for people coming in and out of the TSBD is quite a leap of faith... anything else to help corroborate this closed off back entrance? As I founf this a while back which tells me that other than this one black man, the rear entrances were not exactly "sealed".

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his name?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.

Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.
Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.
Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.
And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?"
He said, "No, sir."
"Did you see anyone leave the back way?"
"No, sir."
Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?
Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.
I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager and they pointed to Mr. Truly.
I identified myself to Mr. Truly.
Mr. STERN - Just a minute.
Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform?
Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not.
Mr. STERN - There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?
Mr. SORRELS - I did not see one; no, sir.
Mr. STERN - And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.

With regards to Lovelady leaving so soon... This is an overlay of just before and a minute or 2 after the shots. We can see Lovelady looking at the camera and then he's gone.

Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.




That Lovelady is seen in Hughes, well after the fact does not prove he didn't leave and return.




Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor. (DJ: Top floor for this elevator was the 4th)
Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there?
Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me.

Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?

Drew - does that sound right to you? Go up to the 4th floor with two men, a quick 1 minute "look" and then back down.

Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.
Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not?
Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?
Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.

Using the same technique of just sighting it in, some of the basic identifications backfire with just a smidge of common sense.
What those fellas offer as statistical math is a shame and a con. You'd think there'd be some math professors in Minnesota.

There is no such thing as statistical analysis of a subjective observation. That was all covered in a mile long thread ripping the Oswald is Doorman BS to shreds...

::pullhairout::

[Bob Prudhomme]

Hi Dave

Everything about Lovelady would have worked like clock work, if only he and Shelley had not testified to remaining on the steps for 3-4 minutes following the last shot. In fact, if we read this excerpt from Officer Marion Baker's affidavit of August 11, 1964, we begin to have even worse problems with Lovelady (and Shelley):

"3. On March 20, 1964, counsel from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy timed a re-enactment of my actions after hearing the shots on November 22, 1963. During this re-enactment, I reached the recessed door of the Texas School Book Depository Building fifteen seconds after the time of the simulated shot."

Fifteen seconds for Baker to reach the door at the top of the steps to the TSBD. Hmmmm, so, for Lovelady and Shelley to be seen strolling casually down Elm St., following the last shot, they had, at the most, 5 seconds to get from the steps to their position where they could look back and see Baker and Truly entering the TSBD.

Anyone else see a problem here? Or two?

[Drew Phipps]

Manchester does not claim that Sawyer sealed the whole building at 12:37, just the front door. It meshes nicely with the cameraman's memory that the film is 8-10 minutes after the shooting. It doesn't mesh with Lovelady, or Sawyer's recollection of his trip inside the building.