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In this little Rashoman of events, I am most inclined to believe Vicky Adams' account and start from there. She is the only one of the usual suspects that had no agenda. Baker's story went through so many emendations that it could be almost anything. Did he take the rear stairs at all? Did he instead take the front elevator. How much time elapsed talking to Truly and maybe Prayerman at the door? It seems to me quite possible that Adams could be down the stairs and out the back door before Truly and Baker.
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Gordon Gray Wrote:In this little Rashoman of events, I am most inclined to believe Vicky Adams' account and start from there. She is the only one of the usual suspects that had no agenda. Baker's story went through so many emendations that it could be almost anything. Did he take the rear stairs at all? Did he instead take the front elevator. How much time elapsed talking to Truly and maybe Prayerman at the door? It seems to me quite possible that Adams could be down the stairs and out the back door before Truly and Baker.
The thing that confounds me is how Lovelady and Shelley can be on the 1st floor when Adams and Styles come down from the 4th floor. Is there any way of being certain it is Shelley and Lovelady seen in the Couch film, walking down the Elm St. extension, as Baker runs up to the front entrance of the TSBD?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
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I think it probably is Shelley in N.O. Here is the film (starting around 3:15)
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Gordon Gray Wrote:In this little Rashoman of events, I am most inclined to believe Vicky Adams' account and start from there. She is the only one of the usual suspects that had no agenda. Baker's story went through so many emendations that it could be almost anything. Did he take the rear stairs at all? Did he instead take the front elevator. How much time elapsed talking to Truly and maybe Prayerman at the door? It seems to me quite possible that Adams could be down the stairs and out the back door before Truly and Baker.
Indeed Gordon.... No reason not to accept that she was down and out and may have even been standing near the rear exit as they went up the stairs.
From my posted images, she is obviously not there in Dillard... question remains - wasn't Dillard less than 30 seconds after the shots stopped?
Mr. DILLARD - Well, after the third shot I know my comment was, "They killed
him." I don't know why I said that but Jackson - there was some running comment
about what can we do or where is it coming from and we were all looking. We had
an absolutely perfect view of the School Depository from our position in an open
car, and Bob Jackson said, "There's a rifle barrel up there." I said, "Where?" I
had my camera ready. He said, "It's in that open window." Of course, there were
several open windows and I scanned the building.
Mr. BALL - Which building?
Mr. DILLARD - The School Book Depository. And at the same time I brought my
camera up and I was looking for the window. N ow this was after the third shot
and Jackson said, "there's the rifle barrel up there." And then he said it was
the second from the top in the right hand side, and I swung t it and there was
two figures below, and I just shot with one camera, 100-mm. Lens on a 35-mm.
Camera which is approximately a two times daily photo twice normal lens and a
wide angle on a 35-mm. Which took in a considerable portion of the building and
I shot those pictures in rapid sequence with the two cameras.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
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20-02-2015, 07:19 PM
(This post was last modified: 20-02-2015, 07:37 PM by Bob Prudhomme.)
David Josephs Wrote:Gordon Gray Wrote:In this little Rashoman of events, I am most inclined to believe Vicky Adams' account and start from there. She is the only one of the usual suspects that had no agenda. Baker's story went through so many emendations that it could be almost anything. Did he take the rear stairs at all? Did he instead take the front elevator. How much time elapsed talking to Truly and maybe Prayerman at the door? It seems to me quite possible that Adams could be down the stairs and out the back door before Truly and Baker.
Indeed Gordon.... No reason not to accept that she was down and out and may have even been standing near the rear exit as they went up the stairs.
From my posted images, she is obviously not there in Dillard... question remains - wasn't Dillard less than 30 seconds after the shots stopped?
Mr. DILLARD - Well, after the third shot I know my comment was, "They killed
him." I don't know why I said that but Jackson - there was some running comment
about what can we do or where is it coming from and we were all looking. We had
an absolutely perfect view of the School Depository from our position in an open
car, and Bob Jackson said, "There's a rifle barrel up there." I said, "Where?" I
had my camera ready. He said, "It's in that open window." Of course, there were
several open windows and I scanned the building.
Mr. BALL - Which building?
Mr. DILLARD - The School Book Depository. And at the same time I brought my
camera up and I was looking for the window. Now this was after the third shot
and Jackson said, "there's the rifle barrel up there." And then he said it was
the second from the top in the right hand side, and I swung t it and there was
two figures below, and I just shot with one camera, 100-mm. Lens on a 35-mm.
Camera which is approximately a two times daily photo twice normal lens and a
wide angle on a 35-mm. Which took in a considerable portion of the building and
I shot those pictures in rapid sequence with the two cameras.
LOTS of problems here, Dave, and you obviously didn't read my posts very carefully.
IF Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were down the stairs, and out the rear exit, before Baker and Truly came to the back of the main floor, how did Adams see Shelley and Lovelady on the main floor near the rear exit? Even if Shelley and Lovelady lied about going down to the rail yard, and went straight into the TSBD, via the front entrance, the best they could have done was get to the elevators at the same time as Baker and Truly, and Ms. Adams would have testified to seeing all four people at the rear of the main floor, not just Shelley and Lovelady.
IF Ms. Adams and Ms. Styles hung around the rear exit, long enough for Shelley and Lovelady to come through the rear exit onto the main floor, she would have seen Baker and Truly come to the elevators and holler up for them to be sent down. Yet, she told WC lawyers she saw NO ONE on the main floor but Shelley and Lovelady.
Your theory would work, if only Victoria Adams had not testified to the WC that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the main floor, near the rear exit, and that she saw no one else there.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that Baker and Truly went up the stairs at the front of the building, and not the back stairs? These stairs at the front entrance went only to the 4th floor. The whole story about Truly hollering up the elevator shaft could be an embellishment to place them at the 2nd floor lunch room.
P.S.
Just read Gordon's post again, and I see he is thinking Baker and Truly may have taken the front elevator or stairs, too.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
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Wasn't Baker's original version of events that he stopped a guy on the fourth floor, that Truly verified as an employee? That seems to be in line with the use of the front stairs, and might also explain why the lunchroom story was so flimsy, had to ignore a slowly closing door, and eventually had to have the Coke removed from it.
But that seriously begs the question why would anyone think that the second floor is a more incriminating place to meet Oswald than the 4th floor, so soon after the shooting?
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)
James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."
Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."
Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
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Bob Prudhomme Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Gordon Gray Wrote:In this little Rashoman of events, I am most inclined to believe Vicky Adams' account and start from there. She is the only one of the usual suspects that had no agenda. Baker's story went through so many emendations that it could be almost anything. Did he take the rear stairs at all? Did he instead take the front elevator. How much time elapsed talking to Truly and maybe Prayerman at the door? It seems to me quite possible that Adams could be down the stairs and out the back door before Truly and Baker.
Indeed Gordon.... No reason not to accept that she was down and out and may have even been standing near the rear exit as they went up the stairs.
From my posted images, she is obviously not there in Dillard... question remains - wasn't Dillard less than 30 seconds after the shots stopped?
Mr. DILLARD - Well, after the third shot I know my comment was, "They killed
him." I don't know why I said that but Jackson - there was some running comment
about what can we do or where is it coming from and we were all looking. We had
an absolutely perfect view of the School Depository from our position in an open
car, and Bob Jackson said, "There's a rifle barrel up there." I said, "Where?" I
had my camera ready. He said, "It's in that open window." Of course, there were
several open windows and I scanned the building.
Mr. BALL - Which building?
Mr. DILLARD - The School Book Depository. And at the same time I brought my
camera up and I was looking for the window. Now this was after the third shot
and Jackson said, "there's the rifle barrel up there." And then he said it was
the second from the top in the right hand side, and I swung t it and there was
two figures below, and I just shot with one camera, 100-mm. Lens on a 35-mm.
Camera which is approximately a two times daily photo twice normal lens and a
wide angle on a 35-mm. Which took in a considerable portion of the building and
I shot those pictures in rapid sequence with the two cameras.
LOTS of problems here, Dave, and you obviously didn't read my posts very carefully.
IF Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were down the stairs, and out the rear exit, before Baker and Truly came to the back of the main floor, how did Adams see Shelley and Lovelady on the main floor near the rear exit? Even if Shelley and Lovelady lied about going down to the rail yard, and went straight into the TSBD, via the front entrance, the best they could have done was get to the elevators at the same time as Baker and Truly, and Ms. Adams would have testified to seeing all four people at the rear of the main floor, not just Shelley and Lovelady.
IF Ms. Adams and Ms. Styles hung around the rear exit, long enough for Shelley and Lovelady to come through the rear exit onto the main floor, she would have seen Baker and Truly come to the elevators and holler up for them to be sent down. Yet, she told WC lawyers she saw NO ONE on the main floor but Shelley and Lovelady.
Your theory would work, if only Victoria Adams had not testified to the WC that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the main floor, near the rear exit, and that she saw no one else there.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that Baker and Truly went up the stairs at the front of the building, and not the back stairs? These stairs at the front entrance went only to the 4th floor. The whole story about Truly hollering up the elevator shaft could be an embellishment to place them at the 2nd floor lunch room.
P.S.
Just read Gordon's post again, and I see he is thinking Baker and Truly may have taken the front elevator or stairs, too.
Bob... to be honest, I don't see how any of this matters at all in the grand scheme of things given the amount we DONT know.
This is all "he said - she said" with time estimates and conflicts between the written words and testimony...
Would Adams lie about not seeing Baker and Truly - I don't think so
Is Adams at the window in Dillard - nope
Could it have take Baker/Truly longer than they claim getting from here to there - sure, THEY were the ones who lied, not Adams - she has no reason to lie
Did Baker and Truly run into Lee or Harvey or ?? coming down the stairs and then never ID this person - yes
Did they make up the lunchroom encounter? yes... between the door being closed and Truly being ahead of Baker, the line of sight and the recanting of Baker's statements after the fact... nothing rings true about that story.
Unless you are claiming that Shelley and Lovelady helped the assassins escape or helped lead DPD to certain spots, or ??? I just don't see the significance of all this micro-analysis
I want to understand the direction this is taking Bob....
Can you, in a couple of sentences, explain what to you is so critical about what they did and the conflicts in their statements -
and please discuss what you know of these two men's involvement with the TSBD gun and drug running activities and why their activities were in your mind assassination related rather than SOP CYA for the TSBD illegal activities.
Thanks
DJ
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
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There could have been two Oswalds in the Depository. One seen by Baker in the lunchroom and another seen on the 4th floor.
This would explain why Tippit was so desperate to carry out his Collins radio-associated monitoring of a CIA Oswald double to make sure the mission went all right. This mission continued at the Texas Theater as witnessed by Burroughs and Haire.
This would also explain the expediency of killing conspiracy witness Tippit and using his death to frame Oswald.
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Albert Doyle Wrote:There could have been two Oswalds in the Depository. One seen by Baker in the lunchroom and another seen on the 4th floor.
This would explain why Tippit was so desperate to carry out his Collins radio-associated monitoring of a CIA Oswald double to make sure the mission went all right. This mission continued at the Texas Theater as witnessed by Burroughs and Haire.
This would also explain the expediency of killing conspiracy witness Tippit and using his death to frame Oswald.
The problem with the lunch room encounter is it doesn't exist in the statements taken that day. It is created later IMO to tidy things up.
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Michael Cross Wrote:The problem with the lunch room encounter is it doesn't exist in the statements taken that day. It is created later IMO to tidy things up.
You have to understand that the Dallas Police knew Oswald was CIA and Ruby associated. Ruby was tolerated at the press conference because they knew he was intel connected. With that in mind it makes perfect sense that after seeing two Oswalds at the Depository that DPD Baker would omit his witnessing of this strange incident until further instructed. Frazier saw the 4th floor Oswald strolling down Houston. Craig saw the lunchroom Oswald exit via the station wagon.
You gotta think outside the box on this one. Think on their level. DiEugenio does this too. Buries himself in Baker's failure to mention the lunchroom encounter and fails to see the obvious in this case-cracking explanation.
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