Michael Cross Wrote:The problem with the lunch room encounter is it doesn't exist in the statements taken that day. It is created later IMO to tidy things up.
You have to understand that the Dallas Police knew Oswald was CIA and Ruby associated. Ruby was tolerated at the press conference because they knew he was intel connected. With that in mind it makes perfect sense that after seeing two Oswalds at the Depository that DPD Baker would omit his witnessing of this strange incident until further instructed. Frazier saw the 4th floor Oswald strolling down Houston. Craig saw the lunchroom Oswald exit via the station wagon.
You gotta think outside the box on this one. Think on their level. DiEugenio does this too. Buries himself in Baker's failure to mention the lunchroom encounter and fails to see the obvious in this case-cracking explanation.
I'm not sure the two points are exclusive. Lee and Harvey are both there. One of them gets change on the second floor and they have to account for that as well as the other on the stairs, so - later you get the lunch room incident. I don't see it as an either/or.
IMO (opinion) first day statements are more credible, especially with LHO dead and the powers that be free to edit at will in the aftermath.
20-02-2015, 10:47 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2015, 12:51 AM by Albert Doyle.)
Michael Cross Wrote:I'm not sure the two points are exclusive. Lee and Harvey are both there. One of them gets change on the second floor and they have to account for that as well as the other on the stairs, so - later you get the lunch room incident. I don't see it as an either/or.
IMO (opinion) first day statements are more credible, especially with LHO dead and the powers that be free to edit at will in the aftermath.
Plausible. Oswald could have been on the 1st floor and not seen at all by Baker and Truly. Knowing Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the lunchroom the first phase plan placed him there as well.
Weren't Fritz's notes saying Oswald told him he was in the lunchroom from the Depository?
It would make sense to ostensibly place one Oswald to be framed on the 6th floor and another to be duped on the 1st or 2nd floor.
The reason I think this theory is at least plausible is because Baker and Truly conspicuously give no details about a man they allowed to walk away uncontested even though he was close to the 6th floor. Baker only said Truly said he worked there.
You've got to remember, the Dallas Police Station was the same place where they took no notes on Oswald's interviews. So anything is possible as far as statements at that point.
My dear Watson, I would place Oswald in the lunchroom because Baker indicated a Coca Cola in his hand and later scratched it out. In other words they removed the Coke once the realized it placed him in the lunchroom for too long. Not only possible evidence of Oswald's presence, but Baker's compliance as well.
Somehow I doubt that Officer Baker could have bumped into Oswald on the second floor, then bumped into the "Oswald double" on the fourth floor, and failed to notice anything amiss.
If Baker was "in" on the plot, Oswald would never have left the building alive. If Truly was "in" on the plot, it beggars the imagination to think that he might be foolish enough to lead Baker into encountering both Oswald, and a double, within a few minutes of each other; or indeed that he would deliberately permit Officer Baker to cross the escape path of the shooter.
Neither Baker nor Truly knew, in advance, anything of significance. How and why they "cooperated" afterwards, that's quite a different thing.
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)
James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."
Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."
Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
Apparently, we have made a false assumption about the TSBD stairs, near the front entrance, going to the 4th floor. It is the elevator near the front entrance that goes to the 4th floor; the stairs at the front only go to the 2nd floor.
From the WC testimony of Victoria Adams:
"Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?
Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.
Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't."
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
21-02-2015, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2015, 08:17 PM by Albert Doyle.)
Drew Phipps Wrote:Somehow I doubt that Officer Baker could have bumped into Oswald on the second floor, then bumped into the "Oswald double" on the fourth floor, and failed to notice anything amiss.
Don't be so sure. The known record gives good reason to believe two Oswald's left the Depository. Frazier said he saw Oswald coming down Houston from the back exit and walking towards the bus and taxi encounter direction. Craig saw his Oswald walk out to the station wagon. So this at least creates the possibility of these two Oswald's sorting out into this scenario.
You can't say what Baker would have done. He was hunting a killer. If Truly OK'ed the second Oswald at the 4th floor landing Baker wouldn't have time to figure out if twins worked at the depository etc.
Drew Phipps Wrote:If Baker was "in" on the plot, Oswald would never have left the building alive.
You can't say this with absolute certainty. There are many examples of DPD just going along with the general level of team playing at the police station. Who knows what Baker was told when he got back to the station? For instance what were the Dallas police who cooperated in no notes of Oswald's interviews told? At what level were they "in" on it? There's no doubt they tried to influence Craig and many others.
Drew Phipps Wrote:If Truly was "in" on the plot, it beggars the imagination to think that he might be foolish enough to lead Baker into encountering both Oswald, and a double, within a few minutes of each other; or indeed that he would deliberately permit Officer Baker to cross the escape path of the shooter.
Truly should be viewed in terms of Byrd's Potemkin Village and Alice In Wonderland mystery building. I would think with the building's background and political orientation Truly would be reachable at minimum. The Depository was no doubt a right-leaning organization at minimum who hired a Marine defector to the Soviet Union. If you follow the assassination in general it is amazing how many people had their political sympathies manipulated into later cooperation - or being "in" on it to some useful degree. How much were the officers at the press conference with Ruby "in" on it?
Drew Phipps Wrote:Neither Baker nor Truly knew, in advance, anything of significance. How and why they "cooperated" afterwards, that's quite a different thing.
The things I'm talking about could comfortably occur within that definition. It is very possible that 'afterwards' included Baker not writing up his full Depository experience too quickly. Remember, the police station is a place where CIA probably got Officer Dean to let Ruby in to kill (an) Oswald. You can interpolate if Dean was reached then the whole perp walk was probably a direct ploy with major cooperation by Dallas police. There is no point applying normal expectations of police fidelity at this point since we are well through the looking glass and fully outside the box so to speak.
What makes me suspicious is every person was tracked and identified in this event with fine scrutiny and detail except this mystery person who was walking away from the 4th floor landing.
Jim Marrs gives evidence that Oswald had a list of his schools and military bases in his pocket when arrested. Maybe this was a pretext to have his school records confiscated quickly:
Albert Doyle Wrote:Jim Marrs gives evidence that Oswald had a list of his schools and military bases in his pocket when arrested. Maybe this was a pretext to have his school records confiscated quickly:
What could the pretext possibly be to make sure 9 year old Jr High School records from a school he NEVER ATTENDED according to the WCR history were confiscated within 12 hours of the assassination only to be followed by interviews during that following week with the Pfisterer's employees related to 1956-1958.
Rather than gather evidence to convict the accused, our FBI is confiscating documents which have little bearing on anything other than the Harvey and Lee situation from almost 10 years earlier.
Let's add something to the Wierder than Fiction category...
Fred KORTH handles Ekdahl and Marguerite's divorce
Fred KORTH handles Lee's discharge from the Marines
Fred KORTH has a close friend who owns 2220 THOMAS, directly across the street from Stripling and where Marguerite lived on 11/22 and 15+ years earlier
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Korth was Secretary of the Navy after Connally. Korth was the president of the bank for General Dynamics (of TFX fighter infamy), after his resignation from government work.
"A commentary in the May, 1985 edition of Proceedings magazine exonerates Fred Korth for any improprieties relating to the awarding of TFX."
Sounds pretty authoritative.
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)
James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."
Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."
Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
Drew Phipps Wrote:Korth was Secretary of the Navy after Connally. Korth was the president of the bank for General Dynamics (of TFX fighter infamy), after his resignation from government work.
"A commentary in the May, 1985 edition of Proceedings magazine exonerates Fred Korth for any improprieties relating to the awarding of TFX."
Sounds pretty authoritative.
Never believe anything our government says until it has been officially denied....
Fred Korth exonerated? IOW, he didn't do anything related to TFX?
::flyingpig::
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)
James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."
Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."
Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
