Why the second floor lunch room encounter could not have happened

[Jim DiEugenio]

Nice one Ray.

[Albert Doyle]

Not fair Lauren. Jim should be allowed to answer how Harry Holmes was a notorious insider for the Commission. Therefore any testimony coming from him should be properly scrutinized.




I believe wiser Deep Political analysis would make Mr Mitcham acknowledge that he was relating the testimony of somebody who was watching the event from all the way across the Plaza in the Terminal Annex Building. Ray is entering the testimony of a person who was a well-known disinformationist for the Commission and is speaking about something he did not witness while he was 1000 feet away in his office looking at the railroad yard through binoculars at the time according to his Commission testimony. Jim knows this but doesn't point it out.



It is only fair to ask both Mr Mitcham and Jim to account for how the testimony of a government perjurer whom Jim himself helped expose, who was 1000 feet away and in his office at the time, could possibly be relevant evidence towards the lunchroom encounter claim?

Mr. BELIN. Where were you on November 22, 1963, around noon or so. That in the day of the assassination?

Mr. HOLMES. I was in my office on the fifth floor of the terminal annex building. located at the corner of Houston and Commerce Streets, Dallas, Tex.



~ ~ ~



Mr. HOLMES. I had a pair of 7 1/2 x 50 binoculars.



Mr. HOLMES. I watched for hours from that vantage point up there with my binoculars, hoping I would see someone running across the railroad tracks, or maybe that I could get word to the police as to where they were, because it was like a birdseye view of the panorama of the whole area.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone run across the railroad track?


Mr. HOLMES. No. I saw nothing suspicious and I am a trained suspicioner.

[Lauren Johnson]

Look, Albert, you have been sneaking all kinds of PM stuff in. You know where that is going to end up.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Do you know how many people put LHO on the first floor?

Including himself?

[Albert Doyle]

Jim, do you think it is fair to allow Holmes, who wasn't even there, to be quoted on this issue? Holmes is jumbling information that was related to him second-hand after the fact. He might be mixing hearsay of Roger Craig's Oswald being stopped at the front door with the lunchroom incident. This kind of mixing up would be expected from someone who wasn't there. You would never allow it in any other instance where you were seriously criticizing evidence.



I've read Kamp's lunchroom encounter claims. They are deliberate distortions of the evidence trying to stretch it in favor of Murphy. Kamp actually doubts that Campbell saw Baker go in and uses the weak excuse that he only said "officer". Kamp avoids accounting for the fact that Baker was the only officer in the area that would fit the description at the time. And Miller showed Piper and West saw Baker & Truly enter in perfect timing to Campbell's witnessing. There's a lot of dishonest evidence skewing going on with this issue that isn't very credible and doesn't represent good assassination research methods.



I'm still waiting for anyone to honestly answer how Truly could tell his wife about a lunchroom encounter that never happened on Friday night? It is fully possible that Campbell didn't go in to the foyer until Mrs Reid's Oswald came down the stairs. Campbell doesn't give a specific time of when he saw Oswald in the foyer storage room. Kamp ignores that there were a lot of other people in the foyer at the time Campbell speaks of. None of them spoke of seeing Oswald.



Jim you've recently come out in favor of Armstrong on the Education Forum. The people who doubt the lunchroom encounter also doubt Armstrong, so they grant themselves the privilege of ignoring how some of those conflicting witnessings might be explained by the second Oswald Roger Craig witnessed. I find your avoidance of this to be less than honest...



No researcher who has fought hard and endured hardships against a majority, who has proven his case, should ever be subject to persecution on this site. No person on this site has a right to dismiss their own accountability to provable facts.



Jim, it is totally dishonest to say Oswald placed himself on the 1st floor. You're using ROKC methods here of leaving out just enough information to suggest that Oswald was saying he was out front. He never said that anywhere and ROKC is lying when they misconstrue the context of Fritz's notes. Oswald clearly said he was somewhere in the Domino Room or lunchroom during the shots and it is totally dishonest to suggest otherwise. He was where Carolyn Arnold saw him at 12:24 and where Baker saw him 6 1/2 minutes later.

[LR Trotter]

[quote=LR Trotter][quote=LR Trotter][size=12]Why couldn't the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter have happened? LeeHarveyOswald said it happened. RoySansomTruly said it happened. DPD Officer MarrionLewisBaker said it happened. Has anyone who was in or within view of the 2nd floor lunchroom at about 12:32pm, CST, 11/22/'63 testified/stated that it did not happen?[/SIZE]

Perhaps you can tell us where Oswald said the encounter happened in the second floor lunchroom.


This was from Holmes.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
...
Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Ochus Campbell
"Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone." Mr Campbell added: "Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since."

Since there was nobody else on the second floor, other than Truly and Baker (if they were ever there), how could there be any other testimony? And Baker's first day affidavit said the encounter took place on the third or fourth floor and the guy was "walking away from the stairway" not in the lunchroom. How did that change to seeing him through the window in the lunchroom door?

I am not going to argue with you Mr Mitcham, but do not find that response credible.

[Ray Mitcham]

[quote=LR Trotter][quote=LR Trotter]
Perhaps you can tell us where Oswald said the encounter happened in the second floor lunchroom.


This was from Holmes.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
...
Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Ochus Campbell
"Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone." Mr Campbell added: "Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since."

Since there was nobody else on the second floor, other than Truly and Baker (if they were ever there), how could there be any other testimony? And Baker's first day affidavit said the encounter took place on the third or fourth floor and the guy was "walking away from the stairway" not in the lunchroom. How did that change to seeing him through the window in the lunchroom door?

I am not going to argue with you Mr Mitcham, but do not find that response credible.

Without getting into an argument(?), why do you not find my response credible.

[Albert Doyle]

Edit

[Albert Doyle]

Probably because you are using the testimony of a known Warren Commission perjurer who was 1000 feet away at the Terminal Annex Building and obviously mixed-up his stories after getting them second-hand.



Why would you be asking us to take the word of someone like this?

[LR Trotter]

Probably because you are using the testimony of a known Warren Commission perjurer who was 1000 feet away at the Terminal Annex Building and obviously mixed-up his stories after getting them second-hand.



Why would you be asking us to take the word of someone like this?

That's about it. In or within view, in my opinion, does not include anyone in or at the TAB. And, according to an established timeline, DPD Officer ML Baker, accompanied by RS Truly, encountered LH Oswald at about 12:32pm, on the 2nd floor.