Altgens 6: Case for Alteration?

[Charles Drago]

Well-compiled.

My point: The late Bernard Fensterwald taught us that "every intelligence operation has at least two objectives." As an intel op, the Doppelganger Gambit within the JFK conspiracy was meant to support construction of an LN-supporting LHO legend AND ultimately to be discovered so as to create cognitive dissonance and dissension among seasoned investigators (professionals and amateurs).

Nearly 50 years later, the likes of Posner and Bugliosi still pick and choose among the multiple LHOs to support their spurious LN arguments.

Nearly 50 years later, the likes of us (the larger JFK research community; not you and me) still argue over the authenticity and meanings of doppelganger sightings.

[David Josephs]

As an intel op, the Doppelganger Gambit within the JFK conspiracy was meant to support construction of an LN-supporting LHO legend AND ultimately to be discovered so as to create cognitive dissonance and dissension among seasoned investigators (professionals and amateurs).

Hang on a minute... :-)

I was under the impression that at the time of the planning and implementation this Gambit was to connect someone with Cuba and Communist Russia in a conspiracy to kill JFK...
and create cognitive dissonance yada yada yada...

Was "Lone Nut" part of this Gambit as a fall back..?
or Was "LN" the unanticipated response from a frightened president... not wanting to be the LAST POTUS ?
or both?


As I read more about CIA operations.. while they all didn't go off without a hitch, the PLANNING included contigencies and alternate outcomes.

Is there any question as to PDS's correctness in stating that Phase 1 was implicate Cuba/Russia, Phase II was to insolate as well as designate a patsy with accompanying evidence as needed.

From what I see, all activities leading to 11/22 related to LHO were Phase 1.
Not only does this phase allow for the setting of the stage, but multiple Oswalds add greatly to the confusion as to where Oswald was at any given time so as to allow the cover-up to pick and choose who needed to be MOST RIGHT about where and when Oswald was at any given time...

Case in point Oct 4-15 when he is both at the Paines and driving thru TX.
How many..."You must have been mistaken about that date/time/place/person, etc...." have we seen...

"... sorry Ruth you were mistaken about Oct 4th... Lee couldn't have been home"
or
"the people in Alice, TX were obviously not the Oswalds... THEY were mistaken."

So now that we've theorized that all pre 11/22 Oswald doubling had the main purpose of implicating Oswald in a conspiracy, with the secondary benefit of confusing the issue after the fact.
(the screams the question - Oswald was doubled early on... when he was in the Marines... (or even earlier ala H&L)

When does he become THE patsy... and are Tampa and Chicago parts of the same plot?...


so back to our topic.... on 11/22 what would be the purpose of a double being at the TSBD or in DP or even in the vicinity if the object was to place Oswald in the 6th floor window....
(Jiffy Mart as well as the Yates passenger on 11/20) http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...lPageId=67


why not just put a double in the window with a rifle as opposed to street level as a witness...

Now I've read about the games these boys (CIA/FBI) play among themselves... Could this be one CIA rogue messin with another to see how good they are at covering the tracks?
If we believe Roger Craig.... and I have no reason not to... someone looking like Oswald left thru the front door not long afterward.

Someone looking like Oswald MAY have taken a cab... (if you read Whaley's testimony, this 30 year veteran of the streets on Oak Cliff REPEATEDLY gets the intersection wrong....see map below)

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that is not what I said, but that is the reason I didn't call one at the time and I asked him where he wanted to go. And he said, "500 North Beckley."Well, I started up, I started to that address, and the police
cars, the sirens was going, running crisscrossing everywhere, just a big uproar in that end of town and I said, "What the hell. I wonder what the hell is the uproar?"
And he never said anything. So I figured he was one of these people that don't like to talk so I never said any more to him. But when I got
pretty close to 500 block at Neches and North Beckley which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do fine," and I pulled over to the curb right there. He gave me
a dollar bill, the trip was 95 cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out and closed the door and walked around the front of the
cab over to the other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there and I put it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him.
Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on what street?
Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and North Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and North Beckley?
Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block.
...
Mr. WHALEY. I am trying to find Beckley, the green light changed from red to green on Beckley, right here is an intersection; Zangs Boulevard goes on up, and Beckley turns off.
Mr. BALL. Here is Neches right here.
Mr. WHALEY. Let me see where Neches is, is that right? Yes, that is it.This is the intersection right there.
Mr. BALL. We put an "X" there.
Mr. WHALEY. That is where he got off.
Mr. BALL. That is where you dropped your passenger, is that right?
Mr. WHALEY. That is--as far as I can see that is Neches.
Mr. BALL. That is Neches, that is Beckley.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is right, because that is the 500 block of North Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Now, we will mark the beginning of your trip on the large map as "Y", and where you dropped your passenger as an "X".
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. "Y" is the corner of Lamar and Jackson, and "X" is the corner of Neches and Beckley.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The witness has been driving a taxicab in Dallas for 36 years.
Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven.
Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will tell you what is on all four corners.
Mr. BALL. Did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the north or south side of the intersection?
Mr. WHALEY. On the north side, sir.
Mr. BALL. North side?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That would be--
Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley?
Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley.


So here we are CD... Oswald doubles have been pushing for conspiracy and Cuba/Russia and evidence against Oswald for premeditation.

Altgens was NOT even an Oswald double... it was LoveLady... and is not clear enough to know whether other people were obscured
but it is not in the realm of impossiblity that any photo or film from that day was immune... Even those shown early and in original form - it would be hard to find those airings today and we know that items in the Archives are not necessarily "original"

So the question is can we compare the existing evidence to the same evidence the first time seen and KNOW it had not yet been changed?
Compare to the Negatives and STILL know they were not changed?

I know I have not always addressed the topic, exactly... but I'm getting there...

If you can help by offering your ideas on how this fits with Peter Scott's Phased story approach... it would help.

Thanks
DJ

[David Josephs]

So this Oswald gets off at the 500 bloock at the corner of Beckley and Neely... not Neches.

Interesting he is only a few blocks from the infamous photo location... no?

[Peter Lemkin]

why not just put a double in the window with a rifle as opposed to street level as a witness...

It seem fairly well established that no one who resembled 'Oswald' was there. It was not needed to Plan A and besides it would be a bit of an upset if the two met on on the Sixth floor or the stairs. We don't know what orders they were each given, but surely they involved actions and positioning to not meet up by accident. However, if they did, the game was over, and one was shortly to be exterminated. Things all didn't go to plan for the plotters, I see good speculation as to why, but in fact we don't know exactly - but they had to change the attack by Cuban/Russian Commies to by a Lone Nut real quick. They may well have had that Plan B ready, but it obviously was not as well planned - thus all the confusion, inconsistencies and last minute post event changes - of which there were SO many. I believe 'Oswald' was to be killed in the theater, but they called his old pal Ruby to do the job a few days later, etc. These were seasoned covert operatives running this and knew how to change plans and cover-up when things went off plan. I'm sure from the get-go they knew there would be kinks and some witnesses might have to be eliminated, the evidence tampered with or created, people threatened into lying or silence, the media controlled, possibly even that the body might need to be slightly altered. And so it all was..... IMO, if things had all gone to Plan, and the US had attacked Cuba or the USSR, the immensity of that situation would have made all the things we were/are able to observe be better obscured. The intended target was eliminated, but the Plan failed badly. They cover up still has to be ongoing in an active, even pro-active way - and is.

[Vasilios Vazakas]

As i have said in previous posts the two Oswalds were part an intelligence operation. THe first Oswald was involved in special ops against Castro, the second was:
1.His alibi
2.counterintelligence to confuse the enemy
3.blame it to Cubans and Russians
This was probably a legitimate operation that was hijacked by Dulles, Angleton, Phillips and Hunt and turned it to
JFK's assassination.

[David Josephs]

why not just put a double in the window with a rifle as opposed to street level as a witness...

It seem fairly well established that no one who resembled 'Oswald' was there. It was not needed to Plan A and besides it would be a bit of an upset if the two met on on the Sixth floor or the stairs. We don't know what orders they were each given, but surely they involved actions and positioning to not meet up by accident. However, if they did, the game was over, and one was shortly to be exterminated. Things all didn't go to plan for the plotters, I see good speculation as to why, but in fact we don't know exactly - but they had to change the attack by Cuban/Russian Commies to by a Lone Nut real quick. They may well have had that Plan B ready, but it obviously was not as well planned - thus all the confusion, inconsistencies and last minute post event changes - of which there were SO many. I believe 'Oswald' was to be killed in the theater, but they called his old pal Ruby to do the job a few days later, etc. These were seasoned covert operatives running this and knew how to change plans and cover-up when things went off plan. I'm sure from the get-go they knew there would be kinks and some witnesses might have to be eliminated, the evidence tampered with or created, people threatened into lying or silence, the media controlled, possibly even that the body might need to be slightly altered. And so it all was..... IMO, if things had all gone to Plan, and the US had attacked Cuba or the USSR, the immensity of that situation would have made all the things we were/are able to observe be better obscured. The intended target was eliminated, but the Plan failed badly. They cover up still has to be ongoing in an active, even pro-active way - and is.

Without really knowing what the PLAN actually was... how can you claim it failed?

JFK was dead
US goes to Vietnam
US/CIA/MIC gets its drug pipeline and takes out the French

Many make millions/billions and we have both a hot and cold war for the next 20+ years.

Now look at the presidents and activites during these 20 years...
If I were writing the CFR annual report... I'd call 1963/64 very good and successful years, with many more to come.

It is VERY LIKELY that Phase 1 - implicate Cuba/Communists/Russia was SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to force the LN card and coverup...
the PLAN was to put LBJ in to a position of choice... WWIII or LNer Cover-up.

In sales we call that Choice-Choice-Close.

So putting another Oswald into DP that day might have been risky but necessary to lead people astray..

I could have been LEE who killed Tippit while HARVEY is at the theater... and it is LEE who leads the police to the theater as well...
it's LEE who is in the balcony and on the stairs and out the back door.

I wish we had more info on that ALLEY... All I've found is that Baggett says he stayed in the alley with some officers while others went in with Brewer... (attached)

So... is THIS Harvey in one of the Tramps photos well after the assassination?

DJ

[Charles Drago]

As an intel op, the Doppelganger Gambit within the JFK conspiracy was meant to support construction of an LN-supporting LHO legend AND ultimately to be discovered so as to create cognitive dissonance and dissension among seasoned investigators (professionals and amateurs).

Hang on a minute... :-)

I was under the impression that at the time of the planning and implementation this Gambit was to connect someone with Cuba and Communist Russia in a conspiracy to kill JFK...
and create cognitive dissonance yada yada yada...

You were under a very narrow impression.

As for your dismissal ("yada yada yada") of the broader, deeper objectives of the Doppelganger Gambit, I strongly suggest that you broaden and deepen your perspectives on deep politics.

Was "Lone Nut" part of this Gambit as a fall back..?
or Was "LN" the unanticipated response from a frightened president... not wanting to be the LAST POTUS ?
or both?

Neither.

Is there any question as to PDS's correctness in stating that Phase 1 was implicate Cuba/Russia, Phase II was to insolate as well as designate a patsy with accompanying evidence as needed.

There is some question about your understanding of Peter Dale Scott's "Phases" cover-up scenario, so I cannot answer this question. . Look at Phase II again

From what I see, all activities leading to 11/22 related to LHO were Phase 1.
Not only does this phase allow for the setting of the stage, but multiple Oswalds add greatly to the confusion as to where Oswald was at any given time so as to allow the cover-up to pick and choose who needed to be MOST RIGHT about where and when Oswald was at any given time...

Again, don't be so eager to identify a single objective for actions that by definition have at least two goals

And I disagree with you strongly regarding your "pick and choose" scenario.

So now that we've theorized that all pre 11/22 Oswald doubling had the main purpose of implicating Oswald in a conspiracy, with the secondary benefit of confusing the issue after the fact.

And before.

When does he become THE patsy... and are Tampa and Chicago parts of the same plot?...

From Day One.

Chicago and Tampa, I submit, were ruses designed to provide security for the Dallas hit. See my threads:

The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis at

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...Hypothesis

and

The Chicago Plot: Edwin Black's Ground-Breaking Investigation at

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...estigation

so back to our topic.... on 11/22 what would be the purpose of a double being at the TSBD or in DP or even in the vicinity if the object was to place Oswald in the 6th floor window....
(Jiffy Mart as well as the Yates passenger on 11/20) http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...lPageId=67

why not just put a double in the window with a rifle as opposed to street level as a witness...

Good questions. If there were at least one LHO double in DP during the shooting, there is no telling how he/they may have screwed up. And by the way, I am not arguing that Doorway Man is an Oswald doppelganger. As it happens, I remain agnostic as to Doorway Man's identity -- although I lean toward BNL, and I have ZERO doubt that the "Cinque"/Fetzer junk science is just that.

I continue to point out that the purposes of the doppelgangers in the JFK hit were many and varied -- and the doubles are not, by the way, restricted to humans:

TWO autopsies; TWO brain exams; TWO rifles; TWO Maurice Bishops; etc.

Now I've read about the games these boys (CIA/FBI) play among themselves... Could this be one CIA rogue messin with another to see how good they are at covering the tracks?

You can't be serious.

Oswald doubles have been pushing for conspiracy and Cuba/Russia and evidence against Oswald for premeditation.

For starters.

If you can help by offering your ideas on how this fits with Peter Scott's Phased story approach... it would help.

Thanks
DJ

I don't mean to be brusque, David. On the contrary, I want to do everything I can to assist and be assisted by researchers exhibiting insight, a strong foundation in the subject at hand, and the courage to share their thoughts with like-minded observers. FWIW, I number you among this group.

My methods are not universally appreciated. I get it. But please know that my responses above are offered with respect and in the spirit of cooperation.

[David Josephs]

CD - I am much thicker skinned than most....

Your approach is yours... I get it and am rarely put off by it...
as long as you don't pull a Fetzer and believe you are automatically rightsimply because you've said it, wrote it and/or posted it.

You too could understand that "yada yada yada" was not a diss on youranswer, I just didn't feel like rewritting it... simple.
I assumed we both know that second part is the crux of Deep politics....

As for NARROW IMPRESSION - I welcome you sharing your thoughts on what YOUTHINK the plan was at the outset...

and for you empahtically state "Neither" seems to me a bit arrogantof your insider knowledge of the origins and planning of the assasination...

I will revist Scott's Phased approach to see where I am missing the boat....

WHY you disagree with my "pick and choose" scenario is much morehelpful than just informing me you disagree....

Now, why can't I be serious about the CIA/FBI boys messing with each other? Given the extreme behaviors - your dismissal is abit short sighted imo...
You don't think some agents had it out for other agents and did things just to "F" with them?

I have been talking DOUBLES from the very beginning... in fact I am fairly sure there were TWO SETS OF TRAMPS as well
We are on the same page there and will continue to be....

-----------------------
I am hoping you are of the caliber of person who can be challenged, respectfully, and reply with support, links, evidence and an argument worthy of this forum.
I don't like to be insulted nor do I believe my opinions backed with what I feel is strong evidence should be ridiculed or dismissed offhand...

you have done NONE of these things to me and I appreciate it... only Fetzer and Albert, with a bit of Mark thrown in has approached me in this manner...
and we see what the results were.

I will continue to show all the members of this forum the respect deserved....
and I expect the same.

I know I reside a few rungs below the "experts" in their fields of study in the different areas of this case... yet I also believe I have a VERY BROAD knowledge base,
some photoanalytical skills, and can find what I need to support, defend or destroy my arguments as well as others.

I try to post under the assumption that there are MANY reading, lurking, etc... that require more of the story, more of the background... so I usually include it
in my replies... not to belittle the knowledge of those I am replying to - but to keep CONTEXT at the forefront of these conversations.

There is a core group that does the heavy lifting here... as with any group dynamic.... I hope to become part of this core group in the areas I excel

I wil continue to offer my POV and defend it as best I can...
I simply ask that if you or anyone believes I am wrong about what I post... TEACH and DIRECT....

I'm here to learn and share and theorize, just like every one else...
styles and approaches not withstanding...

Cheers
DJ

[Charles Drago]

David,

I'm a minute away from leaving for dinner, and I'll address your points in detail -- most likely tomorrow.

In the meantime, I humbly suggest that you don't get so hung up on rankings and the like. Those of us with sound minds and good hearts are in this together.

I have been wrong often on this forum and others regarding issues relating to deep politics. I hope that I never get to Point Fetzer where I'm pathologically incapable of acknowledging mistakes.

If proof were offered that "Albert Doyle" is, in fact, Albert Doyle, I would make a loud public apology for spreading my conclusion to the contrary. And I would not be ashamed of my prior position because it was reached honorably.

But I don't subscribe to the notion that truth ultimately is subjective and non-existent as objective reality. I KNOW, for instance, that I am not wrong when I state the John Kennedy was killed by conspirators.

[Phil Dragoo]

At the art school in the fifties the silent film of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse was horrific, the stuff of a child's nightmares.

Could one be isolated; could their devastation be closely defined.

We have John Armstrong devoting years to a meticulous study of two young men helically doubled from 1952 until death did they part.

And we have John Newman in 1995 and later presenting a case for James Jesus Angleton having manipulated the file of Lee Oswald.

And Jesus wasn't privy to who struck John.

Phasers set on Ino, IIoh, alright, a figure-eight on its side will do.

Lee or Harvey at the Queen Bee, in Minsk, through the eye of Albert Schweitzer.

Photographed and taperecorded, impersonated and pro se, Kostikov in DF and fisticuff in NO.

"That's Fair Play for Cuba," said Jack helpfully.

Two bullets on an FBI desk, bullets on gurneys, wonderful bullets, magical.

Bullets a go go at Tippit's séance with Markham.

Transmogrifying bullet dug from Gen Walker's wall, placed there by two men from two cars while Lee didn't drive, had to thumb a ride in a Rambler, per Roger.

The point, and here, the name of the Forum, is that "the truth" is mercuric and becomes ever more disembodied upon examination.

Was it Vince Salandria who said the cover up was designed to fall apart.

The tear-away jersey, the runner returns the kick and the crowd went wild.

We have had from Craig I. Zirbel and Jim Marrs and Noel Twyman a veritable All You Can Eat Buffet of False Sponsors.

Lee has been the lightning rod throughout. The half-inch pointed aluminum spike absorbing the world's white-hot scrutiny and channeling it through the braided loop to the copper rods driven deep into the ground.

We can't know the "mind of the plotters"such a concept may be a primitive attempt to explain a magnificent algorithmic fugue composed by professional regime-changers/tribal-pacifiers.

Consider the role of the facile Hunt: called in by Dulles for writing duties November 1961, the Bay of Pigs trap having publicly marked JFK as the target of mortal venom from the Brigade and its milint sponsors.

Hunt would immortalize that hate in 1973 in Give Us This Day; then bow out leaving a leg in the Ford loge bunting, shunting blame on LBJ, the big, boorish neighbor of Edna.

Sturgis who knew where bodies were piled, labeling Lee as a KGB assassin.

There can't have ever been a single unified field theory of blame. Eliot's Gerontion gave Angleton the wilderness of mirrors metaphor.

The house of mirrors would lead the hounds hither and yon, always ending the refrain with the lone gunman.

The sunstein sets over the Byrdhouse. The nation will never be allowed to rest upon a culprit, only an unlikely self-described patsy with a defective weapon and a live oak trajectory.

Angleton in hell with the world's best liars. Dulles with his book of lone nuts.

Ron in wheelchair handing off secret files to a professional wrestler who played a man in black.