15-01-2016, 05:50 PM
Jim...
John wrote that well before my thread and I addressed it directly with him.... in this context, I'd rather of heard your POV from your reading of the work.
I am not going to do this point by point as I believe my presentation of the info speaks for itself...
I am only going to look at a couple of things...
McWatters is not criticized... nor are John's "Naysayers", at least this one, saying because of this one lack of ID it was not Oswald... there is much more to it, his lack of ID is simply another brick in that wall.
There is a difference between "could not ID" and what the FBI conveys about McWatters stating it was JONES... On March 26, 1964 Cecil identifies JONES as the man and Oswald as the smallest and most similar to JONES in the line-up. Sounds more to me that they TOLD him he gave a man a transfer and the story unfolds from there with the DPD making sure that the FBI knew that Cecil ID's Oswald.
His affidavit does not ID Oswald... we agree
His testimony supports that he did not ID Oswald.
Yet the DPD's Charlie Brown writes this about the line up results https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html...4&tab=page
"McWatters identified Oswald as the #2 man" which ultimately had to be corrected by McWatters himself down the road.
In their desire to put Ozzie on that bus, they overlook things like details, testimony, affidavits, and go with the plan...
As for the other comment about him changing his Tshirt - for which no evidence is offered... and then we are told since there is no photo of the shirt, it must not have existed...
This from the man who helped bring the inventory charade to light with the FBI taking and returning different evidence...
As I posted, the shirt and grey pants are listed on the inventory but there is no photo - hmmm, now why do you suppose that is Jim? Cause the photos would exactly match the clothes he was seen wearing before he changed?
Well, that's speculation... what's not is what was written in the Interrogation reports of Bookout, Hosty, Kelley and Fritz:
Let's not forget that the elbow hole Bledsoe claims she saw would have been under his Blue Jacket that MILTON and McWATTERS & WHALEY had him wearing... yet was miraculously gone when he walked past Roberts to his room... Amazing!
yet the shirt in question did not have that hole, the arrest shirt has the hole and torn buttons... - another reason not to photograph it or the pants which John freely admits he did change.
![[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=7949&stc=1]](https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7949&stc=1)
So Jim... instead of some blanket copy paste of John's presentation of both sides of the argument ... read the opposing position.
Read what I and others have posted and deal with the evidence and questions asked... not some set of bowling pins set up specifically to be knocked down...
You know I respect John immensely... I happen to think in this case he is trying to make yet another set of created incriminating Oswald evidence into something that really happened...
Maybe ask yourself why the DPD had to invent the McWatters busride. What method of travel home would they need to cover-up?
Maybe a ride in a Rambler in his tan, button down Briarloom? Didn't Fritz and others know about the Rambler story just after Oswald was brought in with Craig mentioning it and Ozzie exploding?? Yet the transfer is not FOUND for over 2 hours... hmmm.
This may also explain why the shirt was removed so soon... there could not be before and after witnesses to the clothing as Ozzie said he changed them early in the interrogation - the first Fritz note at 3:15pm states he changed clothes....
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh-- what 1 could toll of him sitting there, he was--uh---short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.
Mr. BELIN - Could you see his trousers?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.
Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?
Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.
Mr. BELIN - All right. But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?
Mr. CRAIG - No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?
Mr. CRAIG - Captain Fritz then asked him about the---uh---he said, "What about this station wagon?"And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"---I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."
And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."
And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."
And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.
Mr. BELIN - What was he wearing-or could you see the color of his trousers as he leaned over the desk?
Do you find it interesting that BELIN is so interested in what clothes he was NOW wearing?
Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
![[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=7950&stc=1]](https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7950&stc=1)
John wrote that well before my thread and I addressed it directly with him.... in this context, I'd rather of heard your POV from your reading of the work.
I am not going to do this point by point as I believe my presentation of the info speaks for itself...
I am only going to look at a couple of things...
Quote:* Naysayers criticize bus driver Cecil McWatters because he could not positively identify Oswald as a passenger on his bus. Naysayers ignore McWatters' description of this one passenger and his clothinga man who rode in the middle of the bus for only 4 minutes. These naysayers forget there were perhaps dozens of bus passengers on several of McWatters' bus runs on 11/22/63, yet they endlessly criticize him for not remembering details about this one passenger.
&
Oswald could not have removed a reddish-colored, long-sleeved shirt with a button down collar, because he didn't own such a shirt. Oswald did remove one shirt and put it in his dresser drawer, as he told Capt. Fritz. This was his dirty white t-shirt, soiled around the collar.
McWatters is not criticized... nor are John's "Naysayers", at least this one, saying because of this one lack of ID it was not Oswald... there is much more to it, his lack of ID is simply another brick in that wall.
There is a difference between "could not ID" and what the FBI conveys about McWatters stating it was JONES... On March 26, 1964 Cecil identifies JONES as the man and Oswald as the smallest and most similar to JONES in the line-up. Sounds more to me that they TOLD him he gave a man a transfer and the story unfolds from there with the DPD making sure that the FBI knew that Cecil ID's Oswald.
His affidavit does not ID Oswald... we agree
His testimony supports that he did not ID Oswald.
Yet the DPD's Charlie Brown writes this about the line up results https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html...4&tab=page
"McWatters identified Oswald as the #2 man" which ultimately had to be corrected by McWatters himself down the road.
In their desire to put Ozzie on that bus, they overlook things like details, testimony, affidavits, and go with the plan...
As for the other comment about him changing his Tshirt - for which no evidence is offered... and then we are told since there is no photo of the shirt, it must not have existed...
This from the man who helped bring the inventory charade to light with the FBI taking and returning different evidence...
As I posted, the shirt and grey pants are listed on the inventory but there is no photo - hmmm, now why do you suppose that is Jim? Cause the photos would exactly match the clothes he was seen wearing before he changed?
Well, that's speculation... what's not is what was written in the Interrogation reports of Bookout, Hosty, Kelley and Fritz:
Let's not forget that the elbow hole Bledsoe claims she saw would have been under his Blue Jacket that MILTON and McWATTERS & WHALEY had him wearing... yet was miraculously gone when he walked past Roberts to his room... Amazing!
yet the shirt in question did not have that hole, the arrest shirt has the hole and torn buttons... - another reason not to photograph it or the pants which John freely admits he did change.
So Jim... instead of some blanket copy paste of John's presentation of both sides of the argument ... read the opposing position.
Read what I and others have posted and deal with the evidence and questions asked... not some set of bowling pins set up specifically to be knocked down...
You know I respect John immensely... I happen to think in this case he is trying to make yet another set of created incriminating Oswald evidence into something that really happened...
Maybe ask yourself why the DPD had to invent the McWatters busride. What method of travel home would they need to cover-up?
Maybe a ride in a Rambler in his tan, button down Briarloom? Didn't Fritz and others know about the Rambler story just after Oswald was brought in with Craig mentioning it and Ozzie exploding?? Yet the transfer is not FOUND for over 2 hours... hmmm.
This may also explain why the shirt was removed so soon... there could not be before and after witnesses to the clothing as Ozzie said he changed them early in the interrogation - the first Fritz note at 3:15pm states he changed clothes....
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh-- what 1 could toll of him sitting there, he was--uh---short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.
Mr. BELIN - Could you see his trousers?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.
Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?
Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.
Mr. BELIN - All right. But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?
Mr. CRAIG - No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?
Mr. CRAIG - Captain Fritz then asked him about the---uh---he said, "What about this station wagon?"And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"---I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."
And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."
And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."
And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.
Mr. BELIN - What was he wearing-or could you see the color of his trousers as he leaned over the desk?
Do you find it interesting that BELIN is so interested in what clothes he was NOW wearing?
Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter