28-06-2010, 02:41 PM
James H. Fetzer, on 10 April 2010 - 02:22 PM, said:
Well, I remember watching them pack the "evidence" into a vehicle with great fanfare on the 26th
and I thought it was very, very odd. I was impressed with these observations by Armstrong, so I
am going to be both surprised and disappointed if he is wrong about this. I found it fascinating.
You of course are right about the time of the creation of the commission. I double-checked and I
typed it correctly. I don't see any citation or reference, but this appears on pages 2-3 of his Intro-
duction. Strictly speaking, I should say the second and third page, since the Introduction has no
page numbers. I note his "Index" error and others in my "Judyth" and the 1st "Judyth/Jim" threads.
James H. Fetzer, on Apr 10 2010, 03:40 AM, said:
Some participants on the post about Costella's review of Horne berated me for posing this on that
thread. So I am creating a separate thread to make the points I would like to make here instead.
Michael,
You make some nice points, where not only has Costella missed the boat completely but DiEugenio
in a different way. It seems to me that Jim is very good on the trees, not so good on the forest. I
offer this early paragraph as an illustration of what I mean, where he, too, has something wrong:
All the above introductory material is necessary to understand my decidedly mixed feelings about
Inside the ARRB. There seem to me a lot of good things in Horne's very long work. And I will discuss
them both here and later. But where the author gets into trouble is when he tries to fit the interesting
facts and testimony he discusses into an overarching theory. Because as we will see, although Horne
has revised Best Evidence, he still sticks to the concept of pre-autopsy surgery, and extensive criminal
conduct by the pathologists. And as Lifton clearly suggested in his book, Horne will also argue that the
Zapruder film was both edited and optically printed. (Lifton pgs. 555-557)
Unless DiEugenio is writing his reviews as he goes and does not realize what unexpected findings await
him, the fact of the matter is THERE WAS PRE-AUTOPSY SURGERY and EXTENSIVE CRIMINAL CONDUCT
BY THE PATHOLOGISTS, including lying to the HSCA and to the ARRB. And, of course, as he demonstrates
quite decisively, the arguments against film alteration advanced by ROLLIE ZAVADA, by DAVID WRONE,
and by JOSIAH THOMPSON have been thoroughly demolished in the course of Doug's extensive studies.
Egad! Somewhere DiEugenio expresses his preference for the physical evidence over the medical and
photographic, as though he did not understand that ALL OF IT has been planted, fabricated, or faked.
NOTE: DiEugenio should read the first few pages of HARVEY & LEE, in which John Armstrong observes:
Chief Curry turned the physical evidence over to the FBI and it was immediately taken to FBI Headquarters
in Washington, D.C. FBI Agent James Cadigan told the Warren Commission about receiving the evidence
(Oswald's personal possessions) on November 23rd, the day after the assassination. But when Cadigan's
testimony was published in the Warren volumes, references to November 23 had been deleted. Neither
the FBI nor the Warren Commission wanted the public to know that Oswald's personal possessions (phys-
ical evidence) had been secretly taken to Washington, DC, and quietly returned to the Dallas police.
During the three days that Oswald's possessions were in FBI custody many items were altered, fabricated,
and destroyed. The "evidence" was then returned to the Dallas Police on November 26th, and used by the
FBI and Warren Commission to help convince the American people that Oswald was the lone assassin.
As the physical evidence was undergoing alteration FBI officials prepared a 5-volume report, completed
within 48 hours of the assassination, that named Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone assassin. This report
was released several days before the FBI took over the investigation, before they "officially" received the
"evidence" from the Dallas poice, before they interviewed the vast majority of witnesses, two weeks before
the Warren Commission was formed, and many months before their investigation was complete.
. . .
On November 26 the FBI secretly returned the physical evidence (Oswald's possessions) to the Dallas Police
where it was "officially" inventoried and photographed. When the Dallas Police received t he evidence they
were unaware that many of the items had ben altered, fabricated, and/or destroyed. President Johnson soon
announced the FBI was in charge of the investigation and, a short time later, Bureau agents arrived at Dallas
Police headquarters.
As television cameras recorded the historic event FBI agents collected the evidence, loaded it into a car, and
drove away. The public was unaware that the FBI had secretly returned the same "evidence" to the Dallas
Police earlier that morning.
Pat Speer, on Apr 10 2010, 11:17 AM, said:
If that passage really came from Armstrong, I'm afraid his research is not as good as people claim it is. The Warren Commission was formed on the 29th, one week after the assassination, not two weeks after, and the FBI essentially took over the case with Oswald's death on the 24th.
As far as Oswald's possessions, they were inventoried going out on the 26th. The list stretches something like 17 pages. The real problem as I see it is that no list or photo was made of the evidence sent out on the 22nd to be tested, that was returned on the 24th. This includes the paper bag and the paper bag sample. This is the evidence Cadigan saw on the 23rd, not Oswald's possessions.
And if he really did say he saw the possessions on the 23rd, and it was changed, it's not that surprising. The FBI and WC re-wrote the testimony of the FBI's experts, and kept no detailed records of what they changed. While there are memos in the files noting minor changes, some major changes have been detected for which no memos can be found. The HSCA not only re-wrote the testimony of its witnesses, but changed the wording of the questions they were asked, in order to make them fit more closely the SCRIPT written by Blakey and his staff that the congressmen were supposed to follow.
Well, I remember watching them pack the "evidence" into a vehicle with great fanfare on the 26th
and I thought it was very, very odd. I was impressed with these observations by Armstrong, so I
am going to be both surprised and disappointed if he is wrong about this. I found it fascinating.
You of course are right about the time of the creation of the commission. I double-checked and I
typed it correctly. I don't see any citation or reference, but this appears on pages 2-3 of his Intro-
duction. Strictly speaking, I should say the second and third page, since the Introduction has no
page numbers. I note his "Index" error and others in my "Judyth" and the 1st "Judyth/Jim" threads.
James H. Fetzer, on Apr 10 2010, 03:40 AM, said:
Some participants on the post about Costella's review of Horne berated me for posing this on that
thread. So I am creating a separate thread to make the points I would like to make here instead.
Michael,
You make some nice points, where not only has Costella missed the boat completely but DiEugenio
in a different way. It seems to me that Jim is very good on the trees, not so good on the forest. I
offer this early paragraph as an illustration of what I mean, where he, too, has something wrong:
All the above introductory material is necessary to understand my decidedly mixed feelings about
Inside the ARRB. There seem to me a lot of good things in Horne's very long work. And I will discuss
them both here and later. But where the author gets into trouble is when he tries to fit the interesting
facts and testimony he discusses into an overarching theory. Because as we will see, although Horne
has revised Best Evidence, he still sticks to the concept of pre-autopsy surgery, and extensive criminal
conduct by the pathologists. And as Lifton clearly suggested in his book, Horne will also argue that the
Zapruder film was both edited and optically printed. (Lifton pgs. 555-557)
Unless DiEugenio is writing his reviews as he goes and does not realize what unexpected findings await
him, the fact of the matter is THERE WAS PRE-AUTOPSY SURGERY and EXTENSIVE CRIMINAL CONDUCT
BY THE PATHOLOGISTS, including lying to the HSCA and to the ARRB. And, of course, as he demonstrates
quite decisively, the arguments against film alteration advanced by ROLLIE ZAVADA, by DAVID WRONE,
and by JOSIAH THOMPSON have been thoroughly demolished in the course of Doug's extensive studies.
Egad! Somewhere DiEugenio expresses his preference for the physical evidence over the medical and
photographic, as though he did not understand that ALL OF IT has been planted, fabricated, or faked.
NOTE: DiEugenio should read the first few pages of HARVEY & LEE, in which John Armstrong observes:
Chief Curry turned the physical evidence over to the FBI and it was immediately taken to FBI Headquarters
in Washington, D.C. FBI Agent James Cadigan told the Warren Commission about receiving the evidence
(Oswald's personal possessions) on November 23rd, the day after the assassination. But when Cadigan's
testimony was published in the Warren volumes, references to November 23 had been deleted. Neither
the FBI nor the Warren Commission wanted the public to know that Oswald's personal possessions (phys-
ical evidence) had been secretly taken to Washington, DC, and quietly returned to the Dallas police.
During the three days that Oswald's possessions were in FBI custody many items were altered, fabricated,
and destroyed. The "evidence" was then returned to the Dallas Police on November 26th, and used by the
FBI and Warren Commission to help convince the American people that Oswald was the lone assassin.
As the physical evidence was undergoing alteration FBI officials prepared a 5-volume report, completed
within 48 hours of the assassination, that named Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone assassin. This report
was released several days before the FBI took over the investigation, before they "officially" received the
"evidence" from the Dallas poice, before they interviewed the vast majority of witnesses, two weeks before
the Warren Commission was formed, and many months before their investigation was complete.
. . .
On November 26 the FBI secretly returned the physical evidence (Oswald's possessions) to the Dallas Police
where it was "officially" inventoried and photographed. When the Dallas Police received t he evidence they
were unaware that many of the items had ben altered, fabricated, and/or destroyed. President Johnson soon
announced the FBI was in charge of the investigation and, a short time later, Bureau agents arrived at Dallas
Police headquarters.
As television cameras recorded the historic event FBI agents collected the evidence, loaded it into a car, and
drove away. The public was unaware that the FBI had secretly returned the same "evidence" to the Dallas
Police earlier that morning.
Pat Speer, on Apr 10 2010, 11:17 AM, said:
If that passage really came from Armstrong, I'm afraid his research is not as good as people claim it is. The Warren Commission was formed on the 29th, one week after the assassination, not two weeks after, and the FBI essentially took over the case with Oswald's death on the 24th.
As far as Oswald's possessions, they were inventoried going out on the 26th. The list stretches something like 17 pages. The real problem as I see it is that no list or photo was made of the evidence sent out on the 22nd to be tested, that was returned on the 24th. This includes the paper bag and the paper bag sample. This is the evidence Cadigan saw on the 23rd, not Oswald's possessions.
And if he really did say he saw the possessions on the 23rd, and it was changed, it's not that surprising. The FBI and WC re-wrote the testimony of the FBI's experts, and kept no detailed records of what they changed. While there are memos in the files noting minor changes, some major changes have been detected for which no memos can be found. The HSCA not only re-wrote the testimony of its witnesses, but changed the wording of the questions they were asked, in order to make them fit more closely the SCRIPT written by Blakey and his staff that the congressmen were supposed to follow.