That is interesting, too. The four spectators and the two SS men are looking at something at ground level. The human ear is fairly good at sound location, and one would almost expect them to be looking upwards, if they were reacting to a shot from the 6th floor.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
02-02-2014, 06:07 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2014, 06:47 PM by David Andrews.)
Bob,
If a bullet had penetrated the windshield from in front of the car and struck Kennedy in the throat, might any sound have seemed to come from behind the SS agents, Chaney, and pedestrians? Might they be looking back otherwise to see if anyone behind them was hit, to see if it really had been a gunshot? (Not yet knowing JFK was hit.)
Note also that in Altgens 6, it is the persons on JFK's right hand that are most affected. The motor cops on his left may be looking at the car for logistical reasons. Or are the cops looking at each other, asking WTF?, having all heard the sound? Hard to do an eyeline match with shades on.
Interesting idea, David. Kind of like the sound of the bullet hitting the glass being transferred to the other side of the glass, the sound waves from that travelling to the Dal-Tex Building, echoing off it and returning to the ears of the SS men?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
That is interesting, too. The four spectators and the two SS men are looking at something at ground level. The human ear is fairly good at sound location, and one would almost expect them to be looking upwards, if they were reacting to a shot from the 6th floor.
Which is what the SS men are doing. We all know the score. There's many possibilities. The first shot could have the sonic crack but not the bang which would explain the lack of instant response to the loud boom forward of the barrel. Or it could have originated from the South Knoll.
Still though there's something about the lack of witnesses like Brugioni saying he saw Chaney rush forward in the untouched original.
In the bigger Deep Political picture, limo stop or not, there was a conspiracy that demands action.
If a bullet had penetrated the windshield from in front of the car and struck Kennedy in the throat, might any sound have seemed to come from behind the SS agents, Chaney, and pedestrians?
Don't forget the conspirators, whom many witnesses saw in the Depository windows (Especially Carr), may have been firing decoy shots from behind in order to implicate Oswald.
In this interview, Chaney claims to look back over his left shoulder at JFK at the first shot. He then claims to look back over his left shoulder at JFK at the sound of the second shot, and sees JFK struck in the face.
As you are likely aware, the Zapruder film does not show Chaney anywhere near the right side of the limo, yet we are able to see Chaney beside the limo in Altgens 6, just as he claimed.
And, therein lies the problem.
Hi Bob...
Boy, your little "conclusion" about the CHANEY in McIntyre caused some real confusion... but you've hit on some very interesting points....
Have to disagree about Chaney not being near the right rear of the limo, that's EXACTLY where he was as you can see in NIX... the Altgens image , as posted, with a telphoto lens makes the depth of field much less discernable.
Yet as I illustrate, Chaney and partner look directly at the RR yard right after the shot to the head... from the front.
Curry claims it was Chaney riding along side him at the same time he broadcasts:
Mr. CURRY - I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this,
I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report I couldn't
tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from
behind but I said over the radio, I said, "Get someone up in the railroad yard
and check."
[TABLE="width: 551"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 220, bgcolor: transparent"]1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry)
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 434, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
And then about this time, I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could see
some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been two more
reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming behind instead of
from the railroad yards.
Am I reading this correctly? Is Curry claiming that after the FIRST REPORT Chaney guns up to him WHILE Curry looks in the rear view
and AFTER THIS he hears 2 more reports which came from "behind" INSTEAD of the RR yard (like the first one??)
Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I
remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and
accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that
he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and
I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the
street, behind the light pole.
Hargis here seems to be saying that BEFORE HILL REACHES THE LIMO and it accelerates away, CHANEY has already reached up to Curry...
Something is very wrong here...
===============
Ok... some images to not only show that there was no motorcycle filmed doing such a thing anywhere... but even the Queen Mary seems to jump around the films:
In the first... it appears to me that Chaney and Jackson know exactly where the shot(s) came from and can not possibly be by Curry's car at 12:30.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5699[/ATTACH]
Next... the limo reaching and passing the overpass tunnel, while motocycles NEVER arrive from behind and the Queen Mary goes from nowhere to just behind them
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5700[/ATTACH]
And finally the limo et al emerging from the Overpass... if anything, the motorcycle on the LEFT of the limo (Martin or Hargis) and behind Curry's white lead car would be the one to pull forward...
Yet Hargis is very specific with his testimony
Notice the distance from Limo to Lead car in Altgens - the limo is RAPIDLY ACCELERATING toward the lead car which moves over...
How much faster does the Queen Mary need to go to be able to catch this racing limo, yet not be seen in any of the images
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5701[/ATTACH]
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Yeah, something's seriously wrong with the timing of responding to the first shot by driving up to Curry and then hearing two more shots once he got there. There doesn't seem to be enough time for that. And as David shows us the right side cops are turning their heads toward the Knoll.
This testimony creates the possibility for a whole section of the assassination involving the limo stop being abridged. Welp, now I think we know what they did at NPIC.
05-02-2014, 04:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2014, 06:59 AM by Bob Prudhomme.)
Hi David
The quote you give from Chief Jesse Curry is just a tad off. Here is the excerpt from his WC testimony:
"I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital and they were the President, the Vice President and the Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital for--oh--some hour or so."
This allows more time for the limo stop and for Chaney to pass the limo and catch up to Curry in the lead car. Notice, as well, that Curry ordered Chaney to take "us" to Parkland Hospital and that they took "the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital". It seems from this testimony that Chaney escorted the lead car and what was left of the motorcade behind it. Many people mistakenly believe Chaney was among the trio of lead motorcycles ahead of the limo but, I do not believe this to be true. Of course, Chaney may have raced ahead of the trio and led them to the hospital but, I have seen no photographic evidence to support this.
As you say, in the Altgens 6 photo, Chaney was not likely as far ahead as I first believed him to be. I did a careful examination of his words in the video and concluded that to "look back" contained several interchangeable meanings in Chaney's vernacular. To "look back", he did not have to look over his shoulder. He could have been "looking back" over his shoulder and then "looked back" at JFK by returning his gaze to the ahead position. However, despite the compression factor of the telephoto lens, I still think Chaney may have been further forward than the front fender of the followup car. As he stated in the interview, he did see JFK shot in the face, and this may have been difficult if he had been back beside the followup car. And where is Jackson? I almost wish some talented member could draw up an overhead view of the whole thing that would line up everyone and everything in that photo with Altgens' perspective.
P.S. Immediately after the passage from Curry's WC testimony I quoted above, I found this little tidbit on Tippit I never noticed before. As we all know, the WC maintained that Tippit was murdered between 1:11 and 1:15.
"At about 1:15 that day--this first incident occurred about 12:30 or so, and about 1:15 I was notified that one of our officers had been shot, and a few minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the hospital. At that time we didn't know who shot him."
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
The quote you give from Chief Jesse Curry is just a tad off. Here is the excerpt from his WC testimony:
"I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital and they were the President, the Vice President and the Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital for--oh--some hour or so."
This allows more time for the limo stop and for Chaney to pass the limo and catch up to Curry in the lead car. Notice, as well, that Curry ordered Chaney to take "us" to Parkland Hospital and that they took "the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital". It seems from this testimony that Chaney escorted the lead car and what was left of the motorcade behind it. Many people mistakenly believe Chaney was among the trio of lead motorcycles ahead of the limo but, I do not believe this to be true. Of course, Chaney may have raced ahead of the trio and led them to the hospital but, I have seen no photographic evidence to support this.
As you say, in the Altgens 6 photo, Chaney was not likely as far ahead as I first believed him to be. I did a careful examination of his words in the video and concluded that to "look back" contained several interchangeable meanings in Chaney's vernacular. To "look back", he did not have to look over his shoulder. He could have been "looking back" over his shoulder and then "looked back" at JFK by returning his gaze to the ahead position. However, despite the compression factor of the telephoto lens, I still think Chaney may have been further forward than the front fender of the followup car. As he stated in the interview, he did see JFK shot in the face, and this may have been difficult if he had been back beside the followup car. And where is Jackson? I almost wish some talented member could draw up an overhead view of the whole thing that would line up everyone and everything in that photo with Altgens' perspective.
P.S. Immediately after the passage from Curry's WC testimony I quoted above, I found this little tidbit on Tippit I never noticed before. As we all know, the WC maintained that Tippit was murdered between 1:11 and 1:15.
"At about 1:15 that day--this first incident occurred about 12:30 or so, and about 1:15 I was notified that one of our officers had been shot, and a few minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the hospital. At that time we didn't know who shot him."
On the link to page 1 of Curry's testimony we find this:
Mr. DULLES - Do you recall having told them that you had sent a radio order out to surround the book depository?
Mr. CURRY - I didn't do that, sir. That was one of my inspectors, I believe that gave that order. I was riding in the Presidential parade and approximately a hundred feet, I guess, ahead of the President's car, and when we heard this first report, I couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from.
Representative FORD - What report are you talking about now?
Mr. CURRY - A sharp report as a firecracker or as it was it was the report of this rifle. We were just approaching an underpass, and there were some people around on each side of the underpass, up in the railroad yards, and I thought at first that perhaps this was a railroad torpedo, it was a sharp crack. Inspector--no, it wasn't Inspector, it was Lawson of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels of the Dallas office of the Secret Service, and Sheriff Bill Decker and myself were in this car.
Mr. DULLES - I may be anticipating.
Mr. RANKIN - That is all right, go right ahead. Mr. CURRY - I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this, I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report I couldn't tell
whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind but I said over the radio, I said, "Get someone up in the railroad yard and check."
And then about this time, I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could see some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been two more reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming behind instead of from the railroad yards.
On link 2 we have your quoted text - which is not the same sequence he only just before described.... and completely contradicts the timeline HE established... HE radioed at 12:30 to get men to the RR yard...
Mr. CURRY - Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas, and which is near Stemmons Express-way-it was necessary for us to move to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to have a luncheon. I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital and they were the President, the Vice President and the Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital for--oh--some hour or so.
At about 1:15 that day--this first incident occurred about 12:30 or so, and about 1:15 I was notified that one of our officers had been shot, and a few minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the hospital. At that time we didn't know who shot him. I was just told it was in Oak Cliff. I was still at the hospital at this time and I was told by some of the Secret Service people, I don't recall who, to get my car ready and another car ready to take the President--we were informed that President Kennedy had expired--and we were asked to have two automobiles standing by to take President Johnson to Love Field.
And we both agree there are nothing resembling motorcycles coming up along side Curry's car - let alone Chaney who obviously slows down to a stop after the shots and is possibly seen in the background of McIntyre.
This action requires the wholesale alteration of so many images I tend to think it happened much later in the drive to Parkland than testified to.... YET:
Mr[B]. SORRELS - [/B]I felt it was, because it was too sharp for a backfire of an automobile. And, to me, it appeared a little bit too loud for a firecracker.
I just said, "What's that?" And turned around to look up on this terrace part there, because the sound sounded like it came from the back and up in that direction.
At that time, I did not look back up to the building, because it was way back in the back.
Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, "Let's get out of here" and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President's car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lunch forward. And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, "Anybody hurt?"
He said, "Yes."
He said, "Lead us to the hospital."
Mr. DULLES. The pilot car, not the lead car. Mr. LAWSON. The pilot car was up ahead of us, so appeared other things Irecall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.
DECKER does not mention anything from the LEAD CAR...
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
"Inspector--no, it wasn't Inspector, it was Lawson of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels of the Dallas office of the Secret Service, and Sheriff Bill Decker and myself were in this car."
If all of these people were in the lead car, it would be interesting to know who was in the pilot car. We know, from Lawson's testimony, the pilot car was ahead of the lead car, but how far ahead was it? Does it appear in any photos or film?
It seems that Curry, in testimony to the WC, is telling almost two different versions of events. Small wonder his testimony is spread out over so many volumes. I would tend to think Chaney, if he actually did pass the limo to inform the occupants of the lead car of the situation, would have done so after the third shot, and not after the first shot. As Nellie Connally stated about the initial neck wound, she did not see any blood. Outside of an odd firecracker noise and JFK making odd gestures with his arms, how would Chaney know he had been shot? OTOH, there is no question JFK has received a grievous wound following the third shot. In the interview I linked to at the beginning of this thread, Chaney tells the reporter he saw JFK struck in the face, by what he believed was the second shot, prior to passing the limo to inform Curry in the lead car.
There does appear to be contradiction in Curry's two different testimonials to the WC. Why would he be describing the same scenario twice to the WC? Regardless of how Curry described it, though, there is simply too much testimony from too many high ranking officials to dismiss the possibility of Chaney riding ahead of the limo to the lead car. At the risk of emulating Fetzer, I am of the belief things happened exactly the way Chaney, Curry and Lawson said they did, despite the massive film and photography alterations that would have been required to conceal this.
The big question to me, and one asked of me by a number of people (some with a great deal of anger, right, Lee?), is exactly WHY they would cover Chaney's actions up. If we could answer this one question, I believe we would be much closer to solving this entire thing.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
