What is James Chaney Looking Back at?

[David Josephs]

Hi Dave


"Inspector--no, it wasn't Inspector, it was Lawson of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels of the Dallas office of the Secret Service, and Sheriff Bill Decker and myself were in this car."

If all of these people were in the lead car, it would be interesting to know who was in the pilot car. We know, from Lawson's testimony, the pilot car was ahead of the lead car, but how far ahead was it? Does it appear in any photos or film?

It seems that Curry, in testimony to the WC, is telling almost two different versions of events. Small wonder his testimony is spread out over so many volumes. I would tend to think Chaney, if he actually did pass the limo to inform the occupants of the lead car of the situation, would have done so after the third shot, and not after the first shot. As Nellie Connally stated about the initial neck wound, she did not see any blood. Outside of an odd firecracker noise and JFK making odd gestures with his arms, how would Chaney know he had been shot? OTOH, there is no question JFK has received a grievous wound following the third shot. In the interview I linked to at the beginning of this thread, Chaney tells the reporter he saw JFK struck in the face, by what he believed was the second shot, prior to passing the limo to inform Curry in the lead car.

There does appear to be contradiction in Curry's two different testimonials to the WC. Why would he be describing the same scenario twice to the WC? Regardless of how Curry described it, though, there is simply too much testimony from too many high ranking officials to dismiss the possibility of Chaney riding ahead of the limo to the lead car. At the risk of emulating Fetzer, I am of the belief things happened exactly the way Chaney, Curry and Lawson said they did, despite the massive film and photography alterations that would have been required to conceal this.

The big question to me, and one asked of me by a number of people (some with a great deal of anger, right, Lee?), is exactly WHY they would cover Chaney's actions up. If we could answer this one question, I believe we would be much closer to solving this entire thing.

Hey Bob,

Not sure that is the question... the film/photo RECORD covers this up - IMO - based on what the FBI tells us was the location of the third shot... down by Z375 at the foot of the steps.. (WCD298)

This entire shot, described in detail by the FBI, is missing from every and all records... and includes the exact space where and when Chaney would have started forward...
SOMETHING gave the FBI the impression a shot was fired and hit at that spot....

Any ideas?

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According to Todd Vaughn's paper on the motorcade these are the people in the PILOT CAR...
(This paper was from 1993... http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%...m%2015.pdf)
2. PILOT CAR
1. DPD Dep. Chief George L. (G.L.) Lumpkin(DPD Call #5)
2. DPD Det. Faye M. (F.M.) Turner
3. DPD Det. William "Billy" L. Senkle
4. Lt. Col. George L. Whitmeyer, U.S. Army Reserve, East Texas Section Commander
5. Jacob "Jack" L. Puterbaugh - White House

Vehicle: white Ford sedan - provided by DPD
aka: lead police vehicles (CE 767)
pilot car (CE 768)
relevant photos/film: none.
occupant sources: CE 767, CE 768, 4H170 Curry, Stevenson Exhibit
5053, interview by author of G.L. Lumpkin.

[Bob Prudhomme]

http://shelf3d.com/WgNF-sPW8YI#Part 2 - JFK Assassination Photograph Taken By Mary Moorman - In Depth Interview

[Bob Prudhomme]

Getting back to Altgens 6 (you just KNEW I wasn't done with that photo didn't you), when did JFK's jaw get dislocated? And when did the fingers of his left hand get amputated? For that matter, does anyone recall JFK having no neck and his chin naturally resting on his sternum? If you don't understand what I mean, look closely at the photo again and tell me if you think you see anything odd about JFK.



Think of it. According to WC supporters, it has been just over 3.5 seconds since a rifle was fired 60 feet above the heads of the people you see here on the sidewalk, at Zapruder frame 190, and there is absolutely zip for reactions amongst the bystanders. Not a flinch, not a jump; everybody just stand there and grin at the President going by.

From the Warren Commission testimony of James Altgens:

"Mr. Altgens.I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much---of course at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle.

Mr. Liebeler.Did you have any idea where the sound came from when you were standing there at No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?


Mr. Altgens.Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

Mr. Liebeler.What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens?

Mr. Altgens.Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--I looked--I looked because I knew the shot had to come from either over here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle."

[LR Trotter]

In the Altgens photo, and I have never been accused of being an expert at photo analysis, the JFK image has always been hard for me to decipher. If I am seeing a blemish/hole near the rear view mirror, slightly to the driver's left of the mirror, then it is blocking a part of JFK's left ear area. For my view, I believe I am seeing JFK's clinched left fist from the back/top side, and a semi clinched right hand/fist from the palm side. It appears that he is reacting to a throat and/or back wound. But I am troubled by the inconsistent windshield tint as it appears in the photo, as well as what appears to be a somewhat long left arm, if that is what I am seeing. I wish I was positive what part of his face/head I see, but I need some help to comprehend what is visable.

::

[Albert Doyle]

Kennedy's pretty much like he's supposed to be. Posturing with his arms raised in the Thorburn position or putting his hands to his throat.

In my opinion Chaney is either looking to the Secret Service men for their response or the other motorcycle cops on the other side.


Altgens said the shot happened just a fraction of a second before he snapped the picture, meaning the crowd didn't have time to react. To suggest otherwise is to drift into the Fetzer mobile photo alteration laboratory theory.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Kennedy's pretty much like he's supposed to be. Posturing with his arms raised in the Thorburn position or putting his hands to his throat.

In my opinion Chaney is either looking to the Secret Service men for their response or the other motorcycle cops on the other side.


Altgens said the shot happened just a fraction of a second before he snapped the picture, meaning the crowd didn't have time to react. To suggest otherwise is to drift into the Fetzer mobile photo alteration laboratory theory.

Hello Albert

Perhaps I did not explain the point I was trying to make with enough detail for you.

It has long been contended that the Altgens 6 photo corresponds directly to frame z255 of the Zapruder film. It has also been established that Abraham Zapruder's camera ran at the speed of 18.3 frames per second meaning, of course, that every 18.3 frames of that film equates to one second of recorded history.

While no one can say with any certainty when the first shot was fired, JFK can be seen reacting to a bullet wound as the limo emerges from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign and it is believed by many researchers that the latest the first shot can be fired is z210. However, many Warren Commission supporters believe there was a missed shot at z190, and some even believe there was a missed shot as early as z160.

Let's see how these various frames work out for time.

255 - 210 = 45 frames, divided by 18.3 = 2.46 seconds
255 - 190 = 65 frames, divided by 18.3 = 3.55 seconds
255 - 160 = 95 frames, divided by 18.3 = 5.19 seconds

While many witnesses described the first shot as a "firecracker" like sound, this is not the sound one would expect to hear from a 6.5mm Carcano M91/38 short rifle. This rifle had a 21 inch barrel and shot ammunition that was designed to be fired from the original M91 long rifle which had a 31 inch barrel; a difference of 10 inches or, in other words, the short rifle barrel was only 2/3 as long as the long rifle barrel. While the effects of this were not quite as pronounced as shooting the Carcano rounds from the Carcano carbines with their 17 inch barrels, there were still pronounced changes that occurred.


The first effect was a very noticeable drop of around 10% in muzzle velocity, from around 2560 feet/second in the M91 long rifle to 2200 fps in the M91/38 short rifle. This was because the gunpowder did not have a chance to fully combust before the bullet left the short rifle barrel.

The second effect was, because gunpowder was still burning as it left the barrel, there was a greater muzzle flash and the sound of the muzzle blast was far greater than one would hear from a M91 long rifle shooting the same ammunition.

Considering that the bystanders we are looking at in this photo are also in a position that places them ahead of the muzzle of a rifle on the 6th floor, the sound of the first shot should have been deafening. While there is no official time for such things as startle reactions, many researchers, in attempting to explain pronounced camera jiggles seen in the Zapruder film, assign 6 frames or about 1/3 second as normal reaction time in humans to loud, startling noises.

If we look again at Altgens 6 and consider the possibility that a very loud rifle has been fired only 20 yards over the heads of these bystanders within 2.5-5 seconds prior to this photo being taken, where is the startle reaction? In my experience with rifles, an unexpected shot going off this close produces instantaneous and very obvious startle reactions.

[David Josephs]

Hi Bob...

I had always wondered that myself... so I did the GIF at the bottom to show it is not possible THAT is his mouth.... but is his right hand by his neck as we see in the Zframe

With regards to Chaney and what he is looking at in Altgens... I don't know how we could possibly know - exactly... did you see the movie VANTAGE POINT?
Gives you an idea of how easy it is to misinterpret what people see in film or photos....

Bob... Over and over we've shown that the Zfilm, it's 18.3 and frame count does NOT work... the timing and frames do not work... the cut to 133 was designed to "line things up", - and potentially hides a shot that we see Hickey reacting to:

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the "break" at 157, imo, also removes a considerable number of frames - JFK's head swivels like a top in less than 1/18th of a second?

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the alteration at 302-303 with Greer's head turn... these are movements that are simply too fast given the frames they occur within...

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[Bob Prudhomme]

Hi David

What are your thoughts to the lack of reaction in the bystanders, considering a rifle has been fired 20 yards above there heads 2.5-5 seconds before this photo was taken?

Did you watch the Mary Moorman interview? She told the interviewer that she heard a shot about the time she took her famous Polaroid, a pause and two more shots after that; supporting the FBI diagram you posted of the fatal shot occurring not in front of her but down by the concrete steps.

[Albert Doyle]

The shots that hit could have been fired by WerBell-silenced sniper rifles from many positions. The loud decoy shots from the Depository could have come slightly later, therefore explaining the lack of reaction in the bystanders. There could even be a Mauser shot that hit from the Depository. When you have conspiracy it is very hard to trace the exact shots.

[David Josephs]

Hi David

What are your thoughts to the lack of reaction in the bystanders, considering a rifle has been fired 20 yards above there heads 2.5-5 seconds before this photo was taken?

Did you watch the Mary Moorman interview? She told the interview that she heard a shot about the time she took her famous Polaroid, a pause and two more shots after that; supporting the FBI diagram you posted of the fatal shot occurring not in front of her but down by the concrete steps.

Well Bob... I did the Altgens mock-up real quick to show that a variety of people are looking in all sorts of directions.... what they are looking at is anybody's guess... I would like to also have us remember that it was:
Windy
Motorcycle engines are very noisy
Many thought there were fireworks and/or backfires happening which was part of the "parade"
These are excited bystanders not really knowing what to expect at a parade....

One could ask the same questions about HILL... did he not hear what his fellow agents heard? or is he just doing his job watching his assignment?
Those in LBJ's car look like they're having a party, 2-5 seconds after these shots ring out... while Yarborough claims to have seen Arnold "hit the dirt like a good soldier".. he's smiling and laughing....

Jackson seems to be behind the SS men on the left of the Queen Mary

Frame 206 also gives you a good idea of how far back Chaney was... and Z184 gives a small glimpse of Jackson's motorcycle

Finally Bob... I, as you know, believe the recollections of the witnesses within 30 feet of the limo moreso than any of the BS evidence that surfaces down the line...
I believe the FBI had source material that placed shots down by the steps where Altgens and Hudson claim the final shots were fired... and in turn created WCD298 which the FBI Agent who produced the model claims is meticulously accurate....

Is there a single "bystander" who claims to see the Chaney reaction?
And my last thought...

Look at the quality of Altgens 7 compared to the rest of the images... not only is that negative missing, but the top right of the photo has been spliced off (which I added back below)... the people on the bridge are higher up in the photo than the cut-off on the right side... we SHOULD see Chaney in front of the limo at this point... and just look at Alt 6 and 8... crisp, clear, great detail and depth of field....

Any thoughts?

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