Lifton on DiEugenio on JFK offering the Vice Presidential nomination to LBJ . . .

[Bernice Moore]

No one is saying that LBJ was not involved. Anyone who has studied this case for even a few months comes away knowing that LBJ was complicit. Why do people keep arguing this point? Over a word, a concept? How many threads will be started over the word "mastermind?" How come I don't see any of you posting in the Grand Jury thread? Makes me wonder if some are not simply content to argue rather than try to put some energy into something constructive.

Dawn

I agree Dawn, it would appear we have some very angry men at times, scary,?some do love to argue, that appears to be the fun of it for them, i can understand some of the anger over the jfk assassination and the world as is, but it appears some go looking for a broo haw, and it is tiresome, and yes i know, then do not read the threads, ok i won't thanks,hutup: b

[Jim DiEugenio]

Note that Fetzer --the ever so fair and judicious one--did not link to my two posts at EF on this subject.

In the first I explained to Lifton why it is not very wise to use anything from Hersh's book in this case, as he did. And I explained in detail why, since the book has been blown up in so many ways.

Well then Ray Carroll--you know that great researcher--tried to defend Lifton by saying that Schlesinger has completely revised and enlarged the LBJ/JFK VP exchange in his later book on RFK. Like Fetzer's good buddy Phil Nelson falsely attributing an article on Operation Phoenix to Hersh that the CIA stooge did not write, Carroll did not think anyone would look it up. I did, as I did with Nelson. As with Nelson, it did not stand up. Schlesinger was quoting RFK personally. And everyone except maybe Fetzer and Carroll knows how much RFK hated LBJ by the end of his life.

Then Nelson got on again and started doing that Sy Hersh is a hero crap--which is so nutty today that its simply beyond the pale.

This is the kind of stuff that Fetzer actually cross posts--and does so in order to get back at me for exposing his off the wall comparison of Nelson's piece of fiction with Douglass' wonderful 400 pages of hard to come by truth.

That's what happens though when you need to book guests for a radio show.

[Charles Drago]

I'm new to this site and don't want to sound naive, but is David Lifton taken seriously? I read Best Evidence many years ago and thought the conclusions were laughable.

Years later, Martin, are you still laughing?

FWIW, I'm not.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Yes Martin, there are people who still do take BE seriously.

Even today.

For example Jim (everything in this case is fake, including Dealey Plaza) Fetzer, and Ray (Jim Garrison thought Oswald did it) Carroll.

This, even after the work of people like Gary Aguilar, David Mantik, and William Law and Bob Groden on the subject. (BTW, the Law book is a good book. I understand it is being updated.)

[James H. Fetzer]

Here's a sampler of the kind of information that Jim DiEugenio, who thinks he is the greatest thing in JFK research since Mark Lane, appears to be utterly incapable of processing intellectually. I'll put it this way: this guy is just as authentic as the film!

ON THE FAKING OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM:

"New Proof of JFK Film Fakery"
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_...fk_fil.htm

"Mary in the Street - Revisited"
http://www.jfkresearch.com/Moorman/

"Zapruder JFK Film impeached by Moorman JFK Polaroid"
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Zaprude...24-48.html

MORE RECENT WORK ON FILM FAKERY:

"US Government Official: JFK Cover-Up, Film Fabrication"
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/...5772.shtml

"The JFK 'Head Shot' Paradox"
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/fetzer1.1.1.html

"Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?"
http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2011/01/...ll-or.html

Plus John Costella has a nice tutorial into to Z-film fakery:

"THE JFK ASSASSINATION FILM HOAX: AN INTRODUCTION"
http://assassinationscience.com/johncostella/jfk/intro/

and there is a 66-part series about the Duluth conference I organized under
the title, "Zapruder Fakery", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSghy2TkIY

Yes Martin, there are people who still do take BE seriously.

Even today.

For example Jim (everything in this case is fake, including Dealey Plaza) Fetzer, and Ray (Jim Garrison thought Oswald did it) Carroll.

This, even after the work of people like Gary Aguilar, David Mantik, and William Law and Bob Groden on the subject. (BTW, the Law book is a good book. I understand it is being updated.)

[Albert Doyle]

Any thoughts on my post #40? It got buried.


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[James H. Fetzer]

As though DiEugenio's credibility were not already tangled and torn, anyone who does not understand that the massive research compiled by Doug Horne, INSIDE THE ARRB (2009), vindicated Lifton's major thesis regarding body alteration (including the theft of the body, the multiple casket entries, surgery to the head, and altering the throat wound) is completely out of it. I understand his desperation in trying to save face when his positions on so many issues have been dismantled and destroyed--see "RFK: Outing the CIA at the Ambassador", for a nice illustration--but this completely irresponsible attack on BEST EVIDENCE (1980) demonstrates conclusively that he is not a responsible scholar when it comes to JFK research. No one should take JimmyD seriously after his repeated and ongoing displays of incompetence. For a lightweight like him (and others who show up from time to time) to disparage Lifton's brilliant and pioneering studies is both deplorable and absurd. Anyone who has read just the Prologue to HOAX (2003) knows better. There is evidence-based research and then there is dogma-driven. The latter, alas, appears to be DiEugenio's style, which he has patented. It would be laughable were it not so serious.

Yes Martin, there are people who still do take BE seriously.

Even today.

For example Jim (everything in this case is fake, including Dealey Plaza) Fetzer, and Ray (Jim Garrison thought Oswald did it) Carroll.

This, even after the work of people like Gary Aguilar, David Mantik, and William Law and Bob Groden on the subject. (BTW, the Law book is a good book. I understand it is being updated.)

[Charles Drago]

Thanks for bumping this, Albert. Some of your points are most worthy of consideration.

Nagell blows the Washington DC plot by mailing a warning to Hoover. CIA panics and cancels the DC plot. CIA then regroups and forms an emergency plan.

Possible, I guess. But the depth of the planning of Dallas is enough to convince me that, absent proof to the contrary, it was always to be Dallas.

The Vallee plot is set-up as a failsafe in case Oswald gets caught after being exposed by an unpredictable loose cannon in Nagell. Vallee is not quite as sheep-dipped as Oswald but he'll do.

Too much hung in the balance for a "he'll do" fallback.

Besides, what was the rush?

In this panic a car registered to Lee Harvey Oswald is used in the plot as part of a loosely-arranged last minute alternate plan. It was just a prop that ended up being useful in the last minute need to get Vallee in place.

Players at this level engaged in operations of such consequence do not deal in "loosely-arranged last minute alternate" operations.

At the same time Oswald is still not caught so he's redirected to the Dallas plan and put into the Depository by his Paine CIA handlers. Johnson is not notified at this point. By November 2 the Nagell leak is contained. Oswald is deemed unthreatened and serviceable. CIA aborts Chicago and gives the all go for Dallas. The notice for the Dallas plan being a go is a telegram with the codeword "Lee" included.

Again, this is antithetical to everything we know about the manner in which such a mega-important, mega-dangerous operation would be carried out.

Once Dallas is chosen the plotters realize Johnson's political homeland can be used to advantage.

Here's the fatal flaw of your very well-imagined scenario (again, absolutely in keeping with the kind of thinking I'm encouraging with my own hypotheses threads). Under no circumstances can I be lead to accept that the master Facilitators of the JFK attack suddenly had light bulbs go off, experienced a joint eureka! moment, and exclaimed, "Wait just a minute ... if we do this in Dallas, we could False Sponsor what's his name ... the veep ... he's from Texas, right?"

A man doesn't duck from a plot he's in control of.

Now we're getting somewhere. Very nicely played.

Charles

[Albert Doyle]

But the depth of the planning of Dallas is enough to convince me that, absent proof to the contrary, it was always to be Dallas.

Douglass points-out that Oswald had contacted various communist groups in New York and Russian embassies asking them about branches in Washington DC-Baltimore in preparation for what he told those groups was an intended move to Washington. This was to be in September. Richard Case Nagell wrote a registered letter to Hoover warning him of an intended plot to kill Kennedy in Washington DC September 26-29. Some form of Oswald contacted those groups specifically because he was trying to create a record of the assassin of president Kennedy as having contacted those groups (just like in Mexico). It appears there was a serious indicated plan of some sort, whether diversionary or real, for Washington. Remember, we can't nail-down any specific commitment to Dallas until Oswald gets hired by the TSBD in mid-October.

Too much hung in the balance for a "he'll do" fallback.

Besides, what was the rush?

Vallee was an understudy put into place in case some uncontained authority acted on Nagell's warning letter to Hoover. The context here is: The Washington plan is blown by Nagell's whistleblowing; The Vallee plan is put in place at the same time as the main plan is redirected to Dallas; Finally, when all post-DC alternative plans are put into place the Chicago plan is aborted in favor of Dallas.

I have a feeling if Oswald somehow got arrested or killed Kennedy would have been killed in Chicago.

Also, I read somewhere that Kennedy wasn't going to motorcade tour anymore after Dallas. So there was a rush to get it done in a hostile city. Nagell created a serious breach in the plan.

Players at this level engaged in operations of such consequence do not deal in "loosely-arranged last minute alternate" operations.

Nagell was a serious inside CIA player. The plotters had no idea who else might turn honest and try to expose Oswald like Nagell had tried to do. They had to wait to see if any other Nagell booby traps were going to go off. This could have created a threat to the plot that required quick alternatives.

What is interesting about the car is that we now have no idea what role a New York-registered automobile possibly played in the aborted DC plot? Since we know Oswald was being paraded around as discrediting red-bait we have no idea what CIA was possibly trying to connect him to if this NY-registered vehicle actually existed? It would make sense to me Vallee ended-up with it because he was now a new patsy given props originally intended for Oswald in Washington DC.

Again, this is antithetical to everything we know about the manner in which such a mega-important, mega-dangerous operation would be carried out.

The Nagell warning was completely unexpected and served to possibly scuttle the entire plan. At this point they were in serious damage control mode trying to recover the plot and still be able to carry it out according to the original plan. I have no doubt if Hoover ever received the Nagell letter it was immediately turned over to the FBI-CIA liaison who then informed Hoover to hush-up on it because it involved sensitive ongoing operations.

Under no circumstances can I be lead to accept that the master Facilitators of the JFK attack suddenly had light bulbs go off, experienced a joint eureka! moment, and exclaimed, "Wait just a minute ... if we do this in Dallas, we could False Sponsor what's his name ... the veep ... he's from Texas, right?"

The trouble with trying to unravel a high level conspiracy is there are so many intricate possibilities involved in this room full of mirrors that you can go nuts trying to figure them all out. This whole theory is based on Nagell blowing Oswald's cover before a real and intended Washington DC assassination attempt. If the DC attempt was real then they didn't intend Dallas as the first choice. Nagell was willing to go to jail over his certainty of the DC attempt.

The people who think Johnson was the ideal conspirator forget Nixon was also anxious and waiting in the wings and could have been used just as easily to cover-up the conspiracy. If the DC plot Nagell blew the whistle on was real then Johnson may not have been directly informed. If people like Nelson are using the testimony that Johnson announced that the Kennedy boys would be taken care of once and for all on the eve of Dallas, then what that is telling you is Johnson had no idea of the DC plot. Seeing how Johnson could be compromised by his record and would have gone along with any cover-up anyway, even without being involved, we can understand that both Johnson and Dallas may not have been necessary in the original DC plot. Johnson was expendable and Nixon could have followed orders just as easily. An unknowing Johnson could be dispensed with in the following election and the original 1960 Republican candidate could have been swung-in to perfect place having already shown a will in history to conduct Viet-Nam.

Now we're getting somewhere. Very nicely played.

Charles

It makes sense, doesn't it, that if Johnson was in organizing control of the shooting in Dallas that he would have no fear of being hit. Especially if he was 2 cars behind Kennedy. However, if Johnson was informed by rogue CIA cowboys that a shoot was going to happen in Dallas then he might keep his head low not knowing how crazy these guys actually were? Johnson later asks if he was shot at because he wants to know if, perhaps, he was also involved as a target? If he was then he would have a better idea of what he was brought in to.



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[Jim DiEugenio]

BTW, I really was not even needed on that "LBJ blackmail for the VP slot" thread at Spartacus.

Robert Charles Dunne and Peter Fokkes both put grenade sized holes in Lifton and Nelson's efforts to push it through.

Amazing to me how people like Lifton and Nelson are somehow attracted to Seymour Hersh and his slimy book.