Jim DiEugenio on The Devil's Chessboard

[David Guyatt]

Just to note that my interest in Dulles is principally his involvement with the Nazis of the post WWII cold war.

It was, therefore, with some interest that on page 35 of Talbot's book, that the author notes that Himmler and some SS faithful left northern Germany on 10th May 1945 heading to Switzerland in order to come under the protection of Dulles (who had earlier arranged the rescue of SS General Karl Woolf who was surrounded by Italian partisans at his villa in Italy).

And I raise the question whether Himmler did, in fact, escape? I base this question on the book by forensic scientist and medical doctor Hugh Thomas who wrote the book SS-1: The Unlikely Death of Heinrich Himmler, in which he casts serious doubt on the official version of Himmler's suicide while in capture by the British military.

This question is also predicted on the known escape of Hitler's de facto deputy, Martin Bormann, who found sanctuary in Argentina and founded the post WWII Nazi brotherhood's financial machine using the loot and other Third Reich monies secreted abroad under his capital flight programme.

And it is at this point I note a curious fact. Allen Dulles son, Avery became a Catholic priest. So did Martin Bormann's son, Martin Jnr. In and of itself this isn't remarkable. But what is surprising is that they both shared the same "Guardian" during their early years in the Church. It's a small world, I know. But the real curiosity is that the "Guardian" in question was Bishop Alois Hudal, who established the so called Ratlines that enabled up to 40,000 of the very worst Nazis and SS to escape to freedom --- many of whom enrolled in America's cold war against the Soviet Union.

[Drew Phipps]

I thought DNA testing on a skull found in a German railyard confirmed Bormann's death in 1945.

[David Guyatt]

I thought DNA testing on a skull found in a German railyard confirmed Bormann's death in 1945.

I can't fully remember how many times Bormann's body has been discovered, Drew. I believe it is 6. And yes, I believe there has been a DNA test using his son's Avery's DNA. It's convenient that Bormann is dead, although the evidence to his continuing life after WWII is immense as has been established in book after book by highly credible writers like Paul Manning and William Stevenson amongst others.

Bormann's head of security in Argentina was Gestapo Mueller, who, so the official story had it, either died in Berlin at the end of the war, or went to work for the Soviets. And the US government only a few years ago officially confirmed he died at the end of the war. But Manning met him for the research for his book, Martin Bormann: Nazi in Exile, as a prelude to trying to meet Bormann personally. Mueller told Manning that after considerable discussion, the Brotherhood believed it was best for Bormann to remain dead.

Check out who ordered that DNA test.

The question here to be asked is who do you believe. I believe Manning, Stevenson and many others who know the truth. I don't believe the authorized versions told by the US and German governments --- who were complicit in the Ratlines and also who benefited from the money that flowed back into West Germany in 1955 after it regained it sovereignty back. There was no German post war economic miracle. It was vast amounts of plunder flowing back to the Fatherland from hiding places around the world controlled by Bormann and his Brotherhood.

I could go on for pages from memory, but the short version is that we've all been had about the end of the Nazis. And the reason is that powerful business, political and intelligence elements in the US, Britain, Germany and the Vatican conspired in creating a myth of their demise in order to propel a war weary world into a new cold war.

Simples....

[Drew Phipps]

I found Mannning's book and downloaded it for subsequent reading. I'm reading "Devil's Chessboard" now.

I gotta say this up front: Just because someone told Manning that Bormann was alive doesn't make it so. There were undoubtedly high ranking Nazis that made it out of Germany alive. Some of them had help from the US government. That doesn't mean Bormann was one of them.

I have been watching with interest, and an open mind, the Hunting Hitler series on the History Channel (even though it's based on a book by Corsi). Telling people that Hitler, and Bormann, and/or others are still alive might simply serve to generate some "geheimnisBehörde" for people claiming to be the heirs of the Nazi ideology (or their loot).

[R.K. Locke]

I found Mannning's book and downloaded it for subsequent reading. I'm reading "Devil's Chessboard" now.

I gotta say this up front: Just because someone told Manning that Bormann was alive doesn't make it so. There were undoubtedly high ranking Nazis that made it out of Germany alive. Some of them had help from the US government. That doesn't mean Bormann was one of them.

I have been watching with interest, and an open mind, the Hunting Hitler series on the History Channel (even though it's based on a book by Corsi). Telling people that Hitler, and Bormann, and/or others are still alive might simply serve to generate some "geheimnisBehörde" for people claiming to be the heirs of the Nazi ideology (or their loot).

You might also be interested in these links:

http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/f...anization/

https://archive.org/details/For_The_Reco...er_Manning

http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/f...urnalists/

[David Guyatt]

I found Mannning's book and downloaded it for subsequent reading. I'm reading "Devil's Chessboard" now.

I gotta say this up front: Just because someone told Manning that Bormann was alive doesn't make it so. There were undoubtedly high ranking Nazis that made it out of Germany alive. Some of them had help from the US government. That doesn't mean Bormann was one of them.

I have been watching with interest, and an open mind, the Hunting Hitler series on the History Channel (even though it's based on a book by Corsi). Telling people that Hitler, and Bormann, and/or others are still alive might simply serve to generate some "geheimnisBehörde" for people claiming to be the heirs of the Nazi ideology (or their loot).

If it were just Manning I wouldn't have posted as I did - even though I regard him very highly and ddon't for a second doubt his integrity and journalistic skills and instincts. What I would do is recommend you add to your reading list William Stevenson's The Bormann Brotherhood also. Stevenson, like Manning were old school journalists where they double checked and triple checked sources and had access to information unknown to or unseen by others. They lived in an age where their name and reputation was sacrosanct. Manning, for example, was the first person to publish anything about the critical meeting at the 10th August 1944 Maison Rouge Hotel meeting, a Bormann directed meeting btw, to discuss ways to initiate the Nazi capital flight programme for the Fourth Reich. Stevenson, in his book, also elaborates on this but interviews in Jakarta, Hjelmer Schacht, who tells him that the new Brotherhood no longer have an interest in prosecuting a military strategy but believe that a financial and economic strategy is the way ahead for their future.

Meanwhile, another book well worth reading and one that has a direct relationship to this thread is Ladislas Farago's Martin Bormann and the Fourth Reich. Farago was a very highly respected historian and deeply researched his book and came to the same conclusion as Stevenson and Manning - and also Hugh Thomas who also comes to the same conclusion in his Himmler book.

However, Farago made one understandable mistake, given the time period involved, which turned out to be critical and resulted in his whole reputation being ruined. He trusted Allen Dulles. Dulles gave Farago a photo of what he said was Bormann resting in a chair in Argentina post WWII. Farago published it is his book and it was soon proved to be a fake. Obviously, all his other solid evidence he presented was completely ignored after that.

It now seems evident looking back on this episode that Dulles having framed Farago, then snapped the trap shut on his "little mouse" by letting it be known that the photo he supplied was fake, thus discrediting Farago and his book on Bormann's survival. Farago was ruined.

Nice guy that Dulles. And for anyone who has read the book featured in this thread then it is clear - at least to me anyway - that Dulles had something to hide, and it suggests that like Himmler who he was apparently helping to escape at the end of the war (an idea supported by Hugh Thomas as I mentioned earlier) he probably was aiding Bormann too. Or at least had a hand in that. I say this because the notes from the Maison Rouge Hotel meeting makes it clear that the Nazis wide circle of international friends were to be used to aid them in their post war plans. And Dulles very clearly was one of those international friends and as David Talbot makes clear, had a habit of losing files and evidence on Nazis in order to downplay their war crimes and also to smokescreen his close involvement with so many of them.

**

On Hunting Hitler I was disappointed with the last episode which spluttered out meekly with a sense of not being fully finished with facts and leads unsaid. It made me wonder if funding had been pulled or the History Channel stepped on it. Just my conjecture obviously, but I've personally seen this sort of thing happen in regard to British made documentaries on highly sensitive subjects where the evidence is ironclad but the Broadcasters will to broadcast goes missing once they understand all the implications. Truth is a dangerous thing.

Personally, think the series was doing pretty well until that last episode, but that it would've been somewhat better had it focused on more of the evidence that Gerard Williams and Simon Dunstan developed in their book Grey Wolf, rather than focusing entirely on the FBI archive and using Corsi's book title. But there were some gems in it too.

[David Guyatt]

I found Mannning's book and downloaded it for subsequent reading. I'm reading "Devil's Chessboard" now.

I gotta say this up front: Just because someone told Manning that Bormann was alive doesn't make it so. There were undoubtedly high ranking Nazis that made it out of Germany alive. Some of them had help from the US government. That doesn't mean Bormann was one of them.

I have been watching with interest, and an open mind, the Hunting Hitler series on the History Channel (even though it's based on a book by Corsi). Telling people that Hitler, and Bormann, and/or others are still alive might simply serve to generate some "geheimnisBehörde" for people claiming to be the heirs of the Nazi ideology (or their loot).

You might also be interested in these links:

http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/f...anization/

https://archive.org/details/For_The_Reco...er_Manning

http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/f...urnalists/

Great links R. K. Thanks. I hadn't seen these before - or had forgotten them, but they add further important dimensions to the Bormann story, especially on the personal level:

Of particular interest is Peter's moving account of the troubles his father and the family experienced as a result of his father's work on the book.

In addition to surveillance and harassment, the family experienced economic hardship as a result of the deliberate eclipsing of the book by elements hostile to its message.

Jerry Manning, Peter's brother, was murdered, and Paul Manning believed the killing was in retaliation for the publishing of the book. The head of Lyle Stuart had his legs broken the week the book was released and Paul believed that also was punitive action by the Bormann group.

Other highlights include: Paul's belief that the Bormann Organization had infiltrated the CIA without the CIA's knowledge; Paul's belief that the Bormann Organization was behind the assassination of President Kennedy; and Peter's ruminations on the effect of the advent of television on journalism in general and his father's career in particular.

And

Pro*gram high*lights include: inter*est in the rites to Manning's book as a pos*si*ble motion pic*ture or the*atri*cal pro*duc*tion; CBS news' par*tial spon*sor*ship of Manning's research on the Bor*mann story; the role of the Bor*mann Orga*ni*za*tion in the so-called "Eco*nomic Mir*a*cle;" the post-war recov*ery of the West Ger*man econ*omy; acknowl*edge*ment by Simon Weisenthal's top inves*ti*ga*tor that Gen*eral Hein*rich Mueller com*manded the best intel*li*gence orga*ni*za*tion in the world from his posi*tion as direc*tor of secu*rity for the Orga*ni*za*tion; Hein*rich Mueller's role in set*ting up Moham*mer Khadafy's secret ser*vice; Mueller's skill*ful dis*cred*it*ing of author Ladis*las Farago (author of After*math); Manning's dev*as*tat*ing rebut*tal of crit*i*cism directed at his book by an L.A. Times reviewer and his unsuc*cess*ful attempts to obtain an inter*view with Bor*mann him*self, despite sus*tained com*mu*ni*ca*tion with both Mueller and Bor*mann. Sadly, there was no sub*stan*tive response to the efforts of Manning's con*tem*po*raries.

Interesting re the bolded part. It seems to confirm my theory and that Dulles was working with Mueller in this respect. I was somewhat younger when I first read Manning and decided to conduct further research and write on Bormann's escape. Manning was dead, so I called Simon Wiesenthal in Vienna (I think it was). When I explained that I was considering going to Argentina on Bormann's trail, he was politely scornful and strongly discouraged me. Looks like he was dong me a favour.

[Deborra Ann Low]

[quote=Drew Phipps]
Personally, think the series was doing pretty well until that last episode, but that it would've been somewhat better had it focused on more of the evidence that Gerard Williams and Simon Dunstan developed in their book Grey Wolf, rather than focusing entirely on the FBI archive and using Corsi's book title. But there were some gems in it too.

I've been keeping up with the "Hunting Hitler" series as well, although the thought has occurred to me that the series may be a "limited hangout" production, in that it may lay some of the groundwork and show a plausible escape route for these high ranking Nazis (including Hitler), but will put the blame everywhere except at the feet of the CIA. Why, for example, would a retired CIA operative be interested in exposing the truth on this unless maybe it's to provide a partial truth scenario that will end as a still unsolved mystery like, "Yeah, it probably happened, but without the missing links to prove anything beyond doubt, we'll never know. Oh, and by the way, the CIA had nothing to do with this...no involvement...that's why ex CIA operative, Robert Baer is heading the mission and trying to dig up the past and expose the truth.

It's also interesting that Robert Baer has over the past few years, periodically been coming forward as a kind of a whistle-blower against the CIA by talking about operations he's been involved in for the purpose of destabilizing regimes (kind of like Economic Hitman, Perkins), such as his recent confession about the role he played in helping to widely distribute propaganda against the Serbs in Yugoslavia. I'm skeptical and having a tough time believing Baer has simply grown a conscience and can now be trusted (but obviously, I'm no judge of spy character or conscience, you understand). At any rate, I believe Dulles was being uncharacteristically honest when he pointed out to the WC, that it would be difficult to know when an agent was telling the truth, no matter who was doing the questioning. They are loyal to the agency first and foremost. As Richard Helms put it, he wore his perjury conviction like "...a badge of honor."

[Anthony Thorne]

It's also interesting that Robert Baer has over the past few years, periodically been coming forward as a kind of a whistle-blower against the CIA by talking about operations he's been involved in for the purpose of destabilizing regimes (kind of like Economic Hitman, Perkins), such as his recent confession about the role he played in helping to widely distribute propaganda against the Serbs in Yugoslavia.

The above rang a bell as I'd just read this Robin Ramsay piece a few days earlier. Baer has been outspoken about a number of issues, but I'd take that recent confession with a grain of salt.

http://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/free/l...bridge.pdf

[scroll down to the 'Global Research' entry]

If you're reading this there's a good chance you have also looked at the site Global Research. Lots of good people have essays on that site and I agree with most of its positions. And yet I never quite trust it. There is so much material on it, unless there is an army of people working for it - of which there is no evidence - there is no way most of it can be edited or checked. There's not enough quality control. Its motto, if it had one, would be something like that of Rolling Stone in its first incarnation: all the news that fits.

I look at it pretty regularly and every once in a while see something really striking. Recently that was a purported interview with the former CIA officer, Robert Baer, 'Confession of a CIA Agent: They Gave Us Millions to Dismember Yugoslavia'.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/confession-...via/549200

I read only a few lines before becoming suspicious, did a little checking and, of course, it's a fake; it took just one Google search for the 'new book' by Baer upon which the 'interview' is based to discover there is no such book.

Not only is it a fabrication, it was put out before, by the same author, under a different heading, on a different pretext; and it's a fake I spotted at the time but had forgotten about.

[It first appeared in 2012 at

http://www.ebritic.com/?p=213256

and was commented on at

http://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/free/l...bridge.pdf

under subhead 'Disinfo']

Evidently no-one at Global Research thought it surprising that Baer was talking in this startling way, nor thought it worth a Google search before posting it. As I said: not enough quality control.

[Deborra Ann Low]

And it is at this point I note a curious fact. Allen Dulles son, Avery became a Catholic priest. So did Martin Bormann's son, Martin Jnr. In and of itself this isn't remarkable. But what is surprising is that they both shared the same "Guardian" during their early years in the Church. It's a small world, I know. But the real curiosity is that the "Guardian" in question was Bishop Alois Hudal, who established the so called Ratlines that enabled up to 40,000 of the very worst Nazis and SS to escape to freedom --- many of whom enrolled in America's cold war against the Soviet Union.

Avery Dulles was the son of John Foster Dulles, not Allen Welsh Dulles. Allen's son, Allen Macy Dulles suffered for the remainder of his life from a brain injury he sustained during the Koren war when he was hit by shrapnel just after one week of being on the front lines. After he returned home and while he was living with his parents, his behavior was sometimes erratic, uncontrollable and rather embarrassing as to his accusations about his father's involvement with Nazis. Allen then decided to put his son under the care of MKULTRA doctors (maybe to erase some of his "paranoid" thoughts, perhaps??). If so, it wasn't fully successful. Here's a small excerpt from the very tail end of an interview that Mark DePue conducted with Allen Macy Dulles regarding his life and his service as a marine in Korea.

Mark DePue: Okay. You've gone through an awful lot in your life. You contributed so much to your country. What lessons would you like to pass on to future generations about your own experiences about the Korean War?

Allen Macy Dulles: Well, I had so little experience there that I don't have very much of an idea to pass along to add to other people.

Mark DePue: Okay. Would you have any advice for future generations, or wisdom to pass along?

Allen Macy Dulles: Well nothing in particular that I can think of.

Mark DePue: Okay. How about anything else you'd like to say? Any closing comments on your part?

Allen Macy Dulles: No. I don't think so.

Mark DePue: Well, I want to thank you very much, Mr. Dulles, for this

Allen Macy Dulles: Thank you very much.

Mark DePue: It's important for us to hear these kinds of stories, to get an appreciation of what things were really like firsthand. It's an important piece of history, and I really appreciate your taking the time to do this with me.

Allen Macy Dulles: Well, as I said, one thing, the really basic fact that I had never realized was that Allen Welsh Dulles was a German spy.

Mark DePue: Okay. Well, again, thanks very much, Mr. Dulles, and it's been a pleasure.

Allen Macy Dulles: Well, thank you.

I love DePue's response. "Okay. Well, again, thanks very much, Mr. Dulles, and it's been a pleasure." ::comfort::